00:42:08 <water> anyone here?
00:42:24 <water> my ship is broken, so we can't go out yet :/
00:42:26 <calabash> yah
00:42:32 <water> hi calabash
00:42:35 <calabash> hello
00:42:41 <water> are you familiar with tunes?
00:42:58 <calabash> ive read a few things on the site
00:43:27 [TOPIC] water: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System http://www.tunes.org || Slate programming language http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
00:43:31 <water> ok
00:44:04 <water> if you have questions or anything, i'd be happy to help
00:44:12 <calabash> cool.. 
00:44:18 <water> abi has lots of factoids and urls, too
00:48:51 <calabash> the slate page seems to be down for me: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
00:49:11 <calabash> i can get to tunes.org but not ~water
00:52:22 <water> yeah we've been ddos'd
00:52:27 <calabash> doh
00:52:31 <water> you're looking at a mirror
00:52:39 <water> (mirror site)
00:52:49 <calabash> why would anyone want to dos tunes
00:53:06 <water> because our code is sooo threatening! >:)
00:53:13 <calabash> !!
00:53:22 <water> or maybe we pissed someone off on irc :/
01:23:03 <calabash> welp
01:23:09 <calabash> i think im done hacking for the man tonite
01:25:21 <calabash> i shall grab a snack then off to beds
01:25:23 <calabash> later
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02:38:42 <_101> hi
02:44:34 <_101> anyone alive?
02:44:49 <_101> i've subscribed to the tunes list and no letter in a week
02:44:52 <_101> or so
02:44:56 <_101> is it ok?
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06:29:18 <Fare> gakuk
06:29:23 <Fare> CMU? cool!
06:29:29 <eihrul> yeah
06:29:40 <eihrul> not school of computer science, though :/
06:30:12 <eihrul> do we still have #tunes logs anywhere?
06:30:30 <eihrul> can't seem to find what lar1 did with brianna's logs
06:30:35 <Fare> Brianna is here. Does she log?
06:31:07 <eihrul> actually
06:31:28 <eihrul> could probably find them from the shell
06:33:02 <eihrul> so now i have to go suck up to the dean or i'm stuck in the wrong department for a whole year
06:33:11 <eihrul> and even then, will probably still get nothing done
06:33:48 <eihrul> oh joyous day...
06:35:18 <eihrul> Fare: what would you say is the least conspicuous way to murder someone?
06:35:55 <eihrul> within a short amount of time, of course
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06:46:09 <Fare> find whom? suck the dean?
06:46:13 <Fare> what's your department?
06:48:49 <Fare> eihrul: least conspicuous way to murder him? Ahem. Convince his car/train/plane transportation maker to use WinCE on their embedded electronics.
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09:53:06 <Tril> abi seen lar1
09:53:07 <abi> lar1 was last seen on IRC 3 days, 14 hours, 3 minutes and 45 seconds ago, saying: <private message> [Sun Aug 20 19:49:21 2000]
09:55:57 <Fare> Tril!
09:56:47 <Tril> yo
09:56:55 <ult> 'lo Tril
09:57:02 <ult> Did the DDoS just stop?
09:57:06 <Fare> shouldn't www.tunes.org be returned to bespin, now?
09:57:15 <Fare> ult: looks like so
09:57:29 <Fare> ult: so the upstream provider re-routed bespin
09:57:37 <Tril> yesterday sometime all routes were restored to bespin
09:57:46 <Tril> because no more sign of attack
09:57:53 <Fare> Tril: could you find a hint of why the attack was launched?
09:58:16 <ult> Fare: Those damn procedural programmers..
09:58:16 <Tril> yeah, I'm going to interrogate my non OPN bot owners
09:58:41 <Fare> <Fare> shouldn't www.tunes.org be returned to bespin, now?
09:59:01 <Tril> sure, sure... I'll do that today
09:59:31 <Fare> ok. So how would I edit files for ithilien's named?
10:00:21 <Tril> you don't, right now
10:00:26 <Fare> ok.
10:02:10 <Tril> ult: what about procedural programming?
10:02:44 <ult> <Fare> Tril: could you find a hint of why the attack was launched?
10:03:00 <Fare> <Tril> yeah, I'm going to interrogate my non OPN bot owners
10:03:09 <ult> =P
10:03:09 <Tril> What's procedural got to do with it?
10:03:11 <Fare> Cascading day!
10:03:17 <Tril> You think someone has it out for any functional language site?
10:03:20 <ult> Tril: I was blaming procedural programmers.
10:03:23 <Fare> Yeah, that rather non-reflective programmers striking!
10:03:55 <ult> Tril:Hmm, if someone does, they need to be put out of their misery.
10:05:16 <Fare> maybe someone was offended by a PL/I program being posted on the Tunes list?
10:05:58 <ult> I definately was.
10:06:57 <hcf> !seen lar1
10:07:09 <hcf> use bri for seen'ing lar1
10:07:18 <Tril> oh, it counts other channels
10:07:38 <ult> Is abi no longer logging at all now?
10:07:46 <Tril> I didn't know he had any contact anymore
10:07:55 <Tril> ult: abi wasn't logging, "TUNES" was
10:08:01 <ult> Ah ha!
10:08:04 <Tril> and is no longer due to ansi characters
10:08:11 <ult> Well, lar1 seems to be the only one with logs
10:08:18 <Tril> yes, I decided his were better.
10:08:34 <ult> you need a lisp bot
10:09:36 <Tril> why
10:10:54 <hcf> abi's seen is based on ppl (anyone) saying things on her channels or privately, bri's is based on contact w/ her 'users', like join one of her channels 
10:11:17 <hcf> !seen hcf
10:11:22 <ult> DOH
10:11:29 <hcf> i'm not a 'user', so i dont count
10:11:42 <ult> Tril: A lisp botthat could evaluate harmless s-exps would be cool.
10:12:02 <eihrul> cmuclbot? :)
10:13:01 <ult> Tril: Especially if it had ane xtensive database that could be queried through Lisp destructuring
10:13:21 <ult> (Yes, I am considering coding it :)
10:16:04 <Tril> I'm considering coding lots of things
10:16:08 <Tril> it means nothing :)
10:16:59 <Fare> When does the RSA patent expire, already?
10:17:03 <Fare> next month?
10:17:06 <ult> next month i believe
10:17:18 <Tril> are we going to have a party?
10:17:24 <ult> An IRC party?
10:17:25 <Fare> Of course!
10:18:16 <Fare> When do governments and politicians and protectionism and intellectual property expire, already?
10:19:03 <eihrul> world war 3
10:19:27 <ult> well government is self-imposed, so I don't think that one expires.
10:19:38 <eihrul> ult: if we manage to blow everyone up, it will
10:19:49 <ult> eihrul: Rmemeber those demon lords..
10:20:00 <ult> Just get that fscking portal open and we're set :)
10:21:17 <eihrul> ok
10:23:15 <Fare> self-imposed? What country are you talking about?
10:23:24 Fare redirects discussion to #{}
10:39:07 <Tril> maybe not all discussion
10:39:25 <Fare> )
10:41:22 <Tril> abi seen water
10:41:22 <abi> water was last seen on IRC 9 hours, 48 minutes and 0 seconds ago, saying: or maybe we pissed someone off on irc :/ [Thu Aug 24 00:53:22 2000]
10:42:16 <Tril> abi: seen water
10:42:16 [QUIT] Tril quit: Read error to Tril[bespin.org]: EOF from client
10:42:16 <abi> water was last seen on IRC 9 hours, 48 minutes and 54 seconds ago, saying: or maybe we pissed someone off on irc :/ [Thu Aug 24 00:53:22 2000]
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10:45:26 <coreyr> hey tril
10:45:29 <Tril> yo
10:45:42 <coreyr> could you add a little package for me?
10:45:49 <Tril> what
10:45:53 <coreyr> php4_xml
10:47:50 <Tril> done
10:48:04 <coreyr> thanks.
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11:19:27 Fare is away 61453
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12:28:59 <Tril> abi: labview is a dataflow language at http://www.ni.com/linux/
12:30:18 <Tril> i'm looking at the slashdot thread called "Pipes in GUI's" http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/08/11/2052243&mode=thread
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12:38:59 <Tril> hello
12:39:12 <Alex[]> 'lo
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13:53:24 <Tril> how is diktuon2 coming?
13:59:00 <coreyr> good
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15:35:56 Fare is back
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16:21:05 <ult> uhhh
16:21:05 <ult> anything weird going on with bespin?
16:21:05 <ult> it's gotten VERY lagged.
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20:35:49 <water> argghh!!
20:35:56 <water> my ship is cursed!
20:36:22 <water> hi everybody, it's so nice to e-see you ;)
20:36:40 <hcf> e-hi
20:37:19 <water> my schedule has gone to hell
20:37:30 <water> i can't tell you when i will next get a chance to sleep
20:37:56 <water> i'm at a very noisy friend's house trying to get some things done
20:38:06 <water> who else is actually here?
20:38:25 <eihrul> hey water
20:38:31 <water> hey eih
20:38:41 <water> are you still too busy?
20:39:06 <eihrul> kinda, yeah
20:39:13 <eihrul> orientation crap all week
20:39:22 <water> oh well
20:39:36 <water> have you kept up with the quotation thread?
20:39:49 <water> (not the crappy interaction with kyle, though)
20:41:55 <eihrul> yes
20:42:34 <water> any thoughts?
20:43:02 <eihrul> if there are
20:43:11 <eihrul> i need to recollect them :) (read: re-read some of the stuff)
20:43:44 <water> no prob
20:49:54 <water> eih: an extensible parser is as extensible as the system its programmed in
20:50:13 <water> and only as much as its substrate allows
20:50:36 <water> iow the MOP of the parser object determines what you can do
20:50:58 <eihrul> why does parsing involve a mop?
20:51:42 <water> well, you're talking about it as an extensible program, right? :)
20:52:02 <eihrul> yes
20:52:13 <eihrul> but a MOP is for extending the lookup protocol of an object
20:52:17 <water> damn it, i'm getting forced off
20:52:23 <water> i hate these people
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21:01:31 <eihrul> it should not necessarily be used to extend what a parser can parse
21:02:03 <eihrul> this could just as well be served by a system of call backs explicitly suited to a parser, if not served better than with the MOP
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21:14:29 <water> damn it, he left
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21:15:41 <water> re
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21:16:09 <water> a mop is not just about lookup, eih
21:16:30 <water> although i suppose you could frame everything in terms of that
21:16:41 <eihrul> i don't see why you would want to...
21:16:47 <water> neither do i
21:17:05 <eihrul> well, if you mean a protocol for extending the parser, that is fine
21:17:06 <water> <eihrul> but a MOP is for extending the lookup protocol of an object
21:17:22 <eihrul> unless you want to consider the parser a "meta-object"
21:17:40 <water> well, mo's are like small parsers
21:17:42 [QUIT] Melinda quit: Don't make me jump to convulsions.
21:17:57 <water> sort of like smalltalk's protocols are small parsers
21:18:29 <eihrul> well...
21:18:38 <eihrul> to alleviate any confusion, please don't call it a MOP :)
21:18:49 <eihrul> in slate, there is much room for confusion on that term :P
21:18:53 <water> ok
21:19:08 <water> speaking of confusion... :)
21:19:28 <water> notice that Jecel mentioned why mirror objects were introduced in self
21:19:51 <water> which is the same issue we were confronting when we were discussing "^"
21:20:16 <eihrul> well, reflection
21:20:19 <eihrul> that is obvious :)
21:20:34 <water> heh
21:20:56 <eihrul> ^ is not particularly primitive anyway
21:21:03 <water> as he suggested, though, it's more like reflection+quotation
21:21:14 <water> eih: which is good :)
21:22:10 <water> unfortunately, i am still not satisfied with slate design, unless i am missing some solutions to things which are difficult in slate
21:22:48 <water> multi-methods and functions are certainly possible and not very difficult, but...
21:23:08 eihrul has been thinking about multi-methods. )
21:23:25 <water> the whole 'parent' slot issue and cloning causes some thorny things
21:23:53 <water> we might actually benefit from another 'pseudo-parent' slot
21:24:03 <eihrul> how so?
21:24:41 <water> cloning seems to introduce arbitrary levels of distance from object to its traits
21:24:45 <eihrul> are you inferring that 'parent' is not separate from cloning again?
21:24:56 <eihrul> which i have pleaded time and time again against? :)
21:24:56 <water> maybe
21:25:15 <water> sometimes, parent *should* be cloning, though
21:25:38 <water> iow i'm not convinced of what the semantic basis should be
21:25:49 <eihrul> either one can be appropriate for some situations
21:25:57 <water> of course
21:26:02 <eihrul> but if you want to propagate changes, then "cloning" is not an intuitive metaphor
21:26:38 <water> which is why i have advocated using the MO of the parent slot to control such
21:27:08 <water> but because of the pontentially much-variable levels of indirection, that could be bad
21:27:14 <water> s/pont/pot/
21:27:33 <eihrul> well, as it stands, the user can explicitly select which behavior is appropriate by using either mechanism :)
21:27:42 <water> true
21:27:52 <water> but is it meta-programmable?
21:28:05 <eihrul> well, clone itself is just a method on the root object
21:28:15 <eihrul> it doesn't even need to belong in any meta-object
21:28:48 <eihrul> as setting the parent slot is just that :)
21:28:57 <water> just what?
21:29:25 <eihrul> setting the parent slot...
21:29:45 <eihrul> it is as meta-programmable as the setting of slots in general
21:30:02 <water> hm for some reason this isn't getting across to me
21:30:20 <water> maybe i'm just too tired from work
21:30:26 <eihrul> parent is just a slot used for delegation, nothing special
21:30:43 <water> right
21:31:06 <water> but if you set the parent slot on an immutable object...? :)
21:31:17 <eihrul> well, on an immutable object
21:31:34 <eihrul> you would make a clone and initialize the parent slot :)
21:31:39 <water> btw, i am getting two books on purely functional programming in the next day or so
21:31:55 <water> which ties in to this...
21:32:00 eihrul wonders if there are any papers on multi-methods and encapsulation. )
21:32:13 <water> most likely
21:32:31 <water> i know smalltalk uses the #class message to handle multi-methods
21:32:45 <water> i.e. obtaining type info at run-time
21:33:05 <eihrul> well, right now i'm looking at making multi-methods belong to many objects
21:33:12 <eihrul> versus making them exist outside of objects
21:33:27 <eihrul> i'm trying to find any papers on similar idea
21:33:31 <water> sounds like the work with equations i'm trying
21:34:04 <eihrul> you just find the correct method in all objects it specializes on
21:34:16 <eihrul> and in the event that you find many with the same selector
21:34:18 <water> btw the stuff about FP ties in to slate concerning that linear graph rewrite paper by Bawden
21:34:29 <water> eih: yep i follow
21:34:40 <eihrul> then you have an ambiguity that means your partial ordering is fucked up anyway :)
21:34:48 <water> basic cross-cutting of objects into common protocols
21:35:03 <water> eih: what are you talking about?
21:35:12 <water> (re ambiguity)
21:35:16 <eihrul> just ambiguity in method dispatch 
21:35:29 <eihrul> if one method isn't more specific than another method of the same selector
21:35:30 <water> because?
21:35:38 <eihrul> "because?"
21:36:07 <water> in smalltalk you often have many objects with the same selector
21:36:36 <eihrul> not a problem :)
21:36:44 <water> of course not
21:36:53 <water> so what problem are you thinking of?
21:37:08 <eihrul> right now, i'm just trying to think how to make dispatching efficient :)
21:37:26 <water> hm
21:38:30 <water> if you can guarantee that all objects in a namespace respond to the same selector, then within that namespace you can use that info to optimize
21:38:45 <water> (selector or set of selectors)
21:39:28 <eihrul> well, in the degenerate case it turns into normal single dispatch :)
21:39:36 <water> in general you have pattern-matching and unification
21:39:47 <water> sure
21:40:07 <eihrul> which is a nice thing :)
21:41:17 <water> i have replies to give to fare and jecel on the current quoting thread, but time is not on my side
21:41:54 eihrul is still amazed there is activity on the tunes mlist.
21:42:20 <water> P
21:42:31 <water> why amazement?
21:42:41 <eihrul> after 1-2 months of silence
21:42:44 <water> they are just people who are as busy as i am
21:43:01 <water> i just happen to be more onery ;)
21:43:34 <water> anyway
21:43:49 <hcf> eihrul: icuc, http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/56113.html
21:44:13 <water> how were you looking at modelling pidgin execution?
21:44:34 <eihrul> just makes an interpreter object
21:44:46 <eihrul> that uses a vector object as its stack
21:44:59 <eihrul> and takes in the stream of slate code
21:45:17 <eihrul> s/makes/as
21:45:35 <water> and the rewrite rules?
21:46:03 <eihrul> you mean the meta-behavior?
21:46:04 <water> would they just be pre-compiled slate objects?
21:46:27 <eihrul> well, i will need to include support for C FFI in pidgin :)
21:46:33 <water> yes, part of the meta-behqavior
21:46:42 <water> eh?
21:46:54 <eihrul> the methods that drive the interpreter will have to be written in C
21:47:06 <eihrul> but the interpreter will just be a normal object holding the methods :)
21:47:07 <water> sure, at first
21:47:17 <water> oh ok to support reflection
21:47:19 <eihrul> so you can clone it and whatever
21:47:48 <water> i was thinking in terms of having the interpreter being only in c first
21:48:25 <water> but this is definitely better
21:52:02 <water> hm
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21:57:28 <hcf> http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/249454.html http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/219067.html http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~wade/Research/Phd/index.html
22:04:30 <hcf> http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~candy/
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