05:18:09 Kyle_L joined #tunes 05:45:41 smokie joined #tunes 07:05:32 eihrul joined #tunes 07:05:41 hmmm 07:13:24 [QUIT] eihrul quit: Leaving 07:16:59 [QUIT] Kyle_L quit: Leaving 07:41:00 [QUIT] Fare quit: Ping timeout for Fare[APastourelles-101-1-2-33.abo.wanadoo.fr] 07:49:37 hcf joined #tunes 07:51:00 [TOPIC] hcf: TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System http://www.tunes.org || Slate Programming Language http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html 08:34:28 [QUIT] kev quit: Ping timeout for kev[opencores.itb.ac.id] 08:40:49 [QUIT] smokie quit: homez 08:47:26 waffle joined #tunes 08:47:56 hi everyone 08:51:21 hello waffle 08:51:56 [QUIT] MysticOne quit: Read error to MysticOne[user-24-214-12-45.knology.net]: No route to host 08:54:05 i've been trying to figure out how one would alter the syntax structure in scheme. i've heard of projects in which things like this have been done, and that scheme can read in C or PERL statements as first order objects, but don't see how i would go about 08:54:15 doing such a thing. do you have any ideas? 08:56:19 do you want to have C or PERL commands inside scheme as some kind of quatations? 08:56:35 abi: sugar? 08:56:35 sugar is adds indentation-sensitive syntax to the LISP reader of scheme at http://Sugar.mini.dhs.org/ 08:59:34 i don't actually want C or PERL commands, i'm trying to use them as a example of how to do something... for example chaning scheme to use a post-fix operator instead of a prefix operator.... I don't understand what command would allow me to manipulate 08:59:58 the overall syntax. 09:00:03 waffle: doesnt scheme have a define-syntax func? 09:00:17 --looking it up 09:00:36 comp.lang.scheme has had many -fix changing threads 09:02:07 your right. i found "define-syntax-macro", without any mention of it in 09:02:23 SICP, or Scheme and the art of programming 09:03:05 i don't think the standard syntax functions can be used to change the look of the syntax 09:03:23 just to define macros 09:05:23 does guile have something to do postfix? 09:05:31 sugar just seems to redefine the reader 09:08:31 redefines the readear, meaning that it cheats by using a guile-specific extention, which pulls the charactors into sugar, then passes them to guile? 09:09:10 it's probably guile specific, in CL it is standard i think 09:12:26 Zhivago joined #tunes 09:15:51 waffle: icuc, http://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/88-11-005 09:18:35 [QUIT] Zhivago quit: changing servers 09:25:30 that explains it... "extend-syntax" is the function i'm looking for, but i don't see it in the implementation that i'm using (guile) 09:27:12 oooh, but i found it in my books, so i'ts probably a guile problem. 09:33:39 http://www.cs.indiana.edu/pub/scheme-repository/code/lang/ext-syntax.tar.gz 09:43:12 i gotta get lunch. thanks for the references everyone. 09:43:16 [NICK] waffle changed nick to: waffle-aw 09:43:30 [NICK] waffle-aw changed nick to: waff-away 09:46:10 http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/jsobel/ 11:04:06 peh joined #tunes 11:21:26 ult joined #tunes 11:21:52 eihrul joined #tunes 11:51:26 hcf_ joined #tunes 14:05:42 eihrul joined #tunes 14:41:17 Kyle_L joined #tunes 15:02:07 karltk joined #tunes 16:36:00 waffle joined #tunes 16:38:26 [QUIT] Melinda quit: Ping timeout for Melinda[porpoise4.panama.gulf.net] 16:41:36 [QUIT] MysticOne quit: Leaving 17:25:00 future joined #tunes 17:28:05 coreyr joined #tunes 17:28:37 [QUIT] rares quit: irc.linux.com varley.openprojects.net 17:28:37 [QUIT] abi quit: irc.linux.com varley.openprojects.net 17:29:14 abi joined #tunes 17:39:21 lotsa people here 17:41:25 'lo 17:41:40 how are you? 17:41:46 are you new here 17:43:33 hcf joined #tunes 17:44:03 yep 17:44:39 what are some things you like abount Tunes? 17:46:09 it's very fast :) 17:47:44 FAST! Is that all you can say? I like the fact it is smart. (fast is just a corollary) 17:48:04 Are you on the mailing list? 17:48:05 heheh 17:48:11 nope 17:49:00 is it active? i'll join up 17:49:11 Very low volumes. 17:49:23 You will not even notice you are signed on. 17:49:26 ) 17:49:32 hehe 17:50:02 What would you like for Tunes to do for you. 17:50:29 hrmm.. can it do my laundry :) 17:50:51 nope, but it can come up with many ways to do it. 17:52:07 Are you here for curiosity, or do you think you will be serious. 17:52:27 well... both i guess 17:52:41 everything i've read on the tunes site is great. 17:52:59 oops brb 17:53:20 Do you see any implemenation specifics to the solutions they present? 17:53:48 What area are your skills? What area interesets you most? 18:03:16 im back 18:03:37 im a lowly programmer 18:04:13 im like compilers, GUI systems, everything really.. 18:05:29 what do you mean by implementations? 18:05:39 Linux, Mac or Windows? 18:06:12 ive been working with different Unix's and windows 18:06:33 i had a mac 128k a long time ago :) 18:08:19 When I found Tunes in march, I was asounded to find a set of people that had the same goals as I. 18:08:46 Some aspects were totally new, but others were problems I was considering, so had some insight into how I would implement them. 18:09:16 Are you the same, or do you find Tunes ideas slightly foreign? 18:09:22 no im with you on that :) 18:09:44 i've longed for persistence 18:09:56 just to name one thing 18:10:16 well i have to admit i find some of it foreign 18:10:25 but other parts seem very elegant 18:11:12 Yes the leader, Fare, is excellent at describing high level ideas. 18:13:31 Do you have time to add to Tunes? 18:14:45 well like everyone else im sure time is limited :) 18:15:09 but i might be able to contribute 18:15:23 depends what kind of work is happenin' 18:16:02 The people here are very independent, therefore there are many independent, and incomplete, Tunes tries. 18:16:16 [QUIT] Melinda quit: Read error to Melinda[porpoise13.panama.gulf.net]: Connection reset by peer 18:16:20 I am not sure if some are still alive. I know others are not. 18:16:27 hrmm 18:16:43 well if i read some of the statements correctly tunes is really about everything 18:16:48 a whole new way of doing things 18:17:24 Yes, a very large project. 18:17:27 I know that Water is working on Slate. It is his own creation, you would have to ask him what he is working on next. 18:18:15 I am owrking on the Database Cruiser. Not really Tunes, but has significant similarities. 18:18:22 what does it do? 18:19:03 It was a database re-design tool (refactoring) but now it is a programming environment. 18:19:45 It is in Java, and my current goal is to get all the java libraries into it. 18:19:56 cool 18:20:04 (That way it can actually do something). 18:20:34 is it a set of libraries for people to use or an IDE for db development? 18:20:46 I do not need programming help (which is a lot to ask). But I doo need feedback, because I am loosing sight of my goals. 18:21:20 IT should be both, but it is neither now. 18:21:44 You can wite source code and compile. Make objects and methods and fields. 18:21:59 Everything is assumed to be in a table somewhere. 18:22:33 It, technically, is an IDE. But it lacks the elegance of comercial products. 18:22:35 all program data is assumed to be in the db? 18:22:40 Yes. 18:22:48 ahh 18:23:01 Source code, the parse tree etc.. 18:23:53 I use a memory DB right now. An immediate goal is to get a filesystem going so aI would have a real DB. 18:24:25 Maybe a real DB backend would be good too. Whatever I decide will get me to my goal fastest. 18:25:03 using a real db is easy, but then every machine needs to have a db 18:26:01 Yes. The oldest version connected to a DB, but it was a pain to transfer to other machines (have to install a compatabel db) 18:26:49 maybe the java api has some text file db implementation? 18:27:12 if you use JDBC in windows, you can probably use the built-in MS text file driver or the .mdb access driver 18:27:24 Maybe the most recent versions. I would not know. I am in Java 1.1 right now. 18:27:44 MMmm. 18:28:03 Would Access be needed? 18:28:27 I wounder if I could use the registry to store everything? :) 18:28:42 i dunno, i use the .mdb driver and i dont have access installed 18:28:58 but i do have sql server and all the latest DB driver packages 18:30:20 Maybe I will look for that. But porting to Linux will still be a problem. I pride may app on being able to run on both OSs without alteration. 18:31:35 yah, well you can use your own text files if speed is not a big deal 18:33:00 I wa thinking of hashing into a large file to store variables. a memory cach. 18:33:15 I wa thinking of hashing into a large file to store variables. + a memory cach. 18:34:33 sounds good 18:36:04 Maybe you can help me with my current problem. Accessing the drive.... 18:36:45 I can load the Java classes into my database and use them to access files (via Java classes). 18:36:48 ... 18:37:16 right 18:37:21 Or I can hard-code (code in Java instead of in my environment) file access rountines. 18:37:49 i would probably hard-code it 18:37:53 The former is hard work. I would may to decompile the bytecode. 18:38:11 The latter adds to a growing problem: too much hard code. 18:38:24 I would like to have all may code in the database. 18:38:28 you don't really gain much by putting the code itself in the db. if you need to make a change you can always just change the source 18:39:27 I would say there are many gains to be had by putting source code in database: ... 18:39:47 http://www.mindprod.com/scid.html 18:40:53 SCID makes code maleable, and easily refactorable. 18:41:10 this sounds good for a development system, if you have tools which make the whole database stuff transparent 18:41:51 That is the plan. Database Cruiser is definitly becoming a poor name. 18:42:05 http://www.arcavia.com/rd/dbc-html/index.html 18:42:22 i worked on a product which was a 'source code repository' 18:42:36 Did they call it CVS? 18:42:39 all of your source was parsed into a proprietary database 18:42:51 no it wasn't source control, it was a source code database 18:43:00 18:43:08 sort-of like ctags with cross-referencing for gigantic source bases 18:43:24 what did they do with it? 18:44:01 (actual productivity increases) 18:44:23 lots of things. its main feature was that it gave you full access to all of the little entities in your source 18:45:22 like you could find out who was using a particular function, or find any abstract-syntax pattern 18:45:43 like, find all the while statements that call foo() inside of the conditional etc.. 18:46:23 im reading your page now.. 18:46:35 [QUIT] eihrul quit: Leaving 18:47:05 Please give me feedback. Don't be nice to me. 18:47:11 hehe 18:50:04 Maybe I will paackage the most recent version. 18:52:22 i like your idea about having set operations instead of loops 18:52:44 i've often thought about a programming system that was set based 18:52:56 i guess someone invented something called SET-L (sp?) which was something like that 18:53:00 Yes, but like SQL has some issues. I solve them with self-joins. 18:53:26 SQL too.. altho i use loops in sql all the time ;) 18:53:37 with MS-SQL/oracle you can do anything in sql 18:54:32 Heirarchies are hell though. (physically slow, or semantically cumbersome) 18:55:29 depends on what you're doing with the hierarchy.. I like the idea of 'patterns' for searching through trees. 18:55:43 I guess that's what XPath XML does 18:56:18 its basically grep, but structured for trees 18:59:20 Yes, there are many good solutions. SQL needs to be standardized to admit one. 19:01:10 F**K I hate it when I delete my database 19:01:16 ( 19:01:50 oops :) 19:04:20 Whew! I knew I made that backup subroutine for a reason! (just a few minuits work lost!) 19:05:41 [NICK] Melinda changed nick to: Me^Shower 19:34:16 g'nite 19:34:21 [QUIT] Kyle_L quit: Leaving 19:39:05 [QUIT] _ruiner_ quit: destroy what destroys you 23:50:13 witten joined #tunes 01:40:12 lar1 joined #tunes