00:12:21 <water> hello
02:18:27 <water> Fare!
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02:53:30 <water> re
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04:27:45 <water> bespin's postgresql is not working right atm
04:44:13 water reads 2000.09.21 logs
04:47:14 <water> fare is too often *only* an academic
04:47:28 <water> which is so useless at times
04:48:56 <water> and it might actually help the bastard to CITE papers
04:49:18 <water> before he calls it "basic CS terms"
04:49:31 <water> bah
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08:44:46 <moebious> test
08:44:57 <moebious> I'm here :)
08:45:03 <moebious> Hi
08:46:24 [NICK] moebious changed nick to: DerekVerLee
08:46:33 <DerekVerLee>  =]
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08:48:36 <DerekVerLee> hmm, cybernethics...
08:49:56 <Fare> gakuk
08:49:57 <Fare> did you manage to subscribe?
08:50:39 <DerekVerLee> just did
08:50:53 <DerekVerLee> i prefer good old majordomo systems myself
08:51:22 <DerekVerLee> got class, bbl
08:55:12 <Fare> (majordomo was badly broken securitywise)
08:55:18 <Fare> (and licensewise, too)
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12:26:47 <DerekVerLee> never ran majordomo, just used it, and I like at least some consistancy in my life
12:31:36 <DerekVerLee> i'm toying with an abstraction I came up with, doubt its anything new, but classes, functions, objects, scopes, frames, packages, ect can be derived from one meta-object I think
12:34:03 DerekVerLee makes a mental note to not overuse the prefix "meta".
12:41:44 <smkl> http://iml.univ-mrs.fr/~girard/Articles.html
12:44:06 <DerekVerLee> which one, continuus branch spaces?
12:44:17 <DerekVerLee> coherent rather 
12:46:36 <smkl> i just pasted that link because somebody told about that on the mailing list but didnt care to post that link
12:46:36 <DerekVerLee> heh, i cant read lol
12:46:53 <DerekVerLee> oh
12:47:13 <DerekVerLee> ic
13:30:39 <eihrul> DerekVerLee: one could argue objects or functions can express all of those :)
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17:05:12 <water> hi all
17:08:26 <lar1> Water!
17:08:31 <lar1> I've been using squeak!
17:17:11 <DerekVerLee> eihrul: yes, but i found a representation which I am finding usefull.
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17:36:23 <DerekVerLee> I think, for example, that the system could be ported by changing just one layer, the machine description context
17:39:43 <DerekVerLee> and also a basic interpreter or compiler which can be loaded into the machine to get things rolling :)
17:54:14 <water> hm
17:54:21 <water> damn apple customer line
17:54:32 <water> brb again
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18:38:05 <water> whew
18:38:30 <hcf> water: www.tunes.org/~nef/logs/
18:38:39 <water> ok
18:39:04 <water> hm nicer to read
18:39:27 <hcf> quits go in the proper channels too
18:39:48 <hcf> so u like the format?
18:40:09 <water> sure, indentation of meta-stuff helps
18:40:49 <water> hum brb... another phone call to make
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18:46:13 <water> okaaay
18:46:31 <water> hcf: hm maybe you can help Fare and i on something
18:46:41 <hcf> what?
18:47:11 <water> check yesterday's lisp logs as well as 2000.09.21 for #tunes logs
18:47:42 <water> i don't know for sure how to approach our mis-understandings on this
18:50:09 <water> anyway, you also seem to have provided a lot of url's that i can't quite keep up with
18:50:53 <water> are there ones in particular you thought might help Fare, eihrul, or I in particular? (i.e. for tunes hll)
18:51:21 <hcf> hmm, i'l check
18:51:31 <water> k
18:52:38 <hcf> from when should i start?
18:53:45 <water> hm 2 weeks ago, probably
18:55:41 <water> ok now i have a *new* order for an ibook which will not get botched
18:55:50 <hcf> for now on, i'l try to add a specifier
18:55:57 <water> what's up, eih?
18:56:31 <eihrul> lately i've just been playing around with PRE a lot :)
18:56:39 <water> PRE?
18:56:45 <hcf> abi: pre?
18:56:46 <abi> pre is Partial Redundancy Elimination
18:56:52 <eihrul> the holy grail of optimization!
18:56:52 <water> oh yeah
18:56:58 <water> heh
18:57:12 <water> what about a slate.lisp? </nag>
18:57:32 <hcf> eihrul: "feel free" to add relevant urls to that factoid
18:58:25 <eihrul> well, as i intoned before, the intrinsic difficulty of making a working-to-spec slate.lisp at this point is the same as pidgin :)
18:58:50 <water> why, though?
18:59:04 <eihrul> because i already have a garbage collector and such up
18:59:11 <eihrul> the only issue now is really the system itself
18:59:15 <eihrul> which has to be in either one
18:59:20 <water> oic, pidgin *progress* :)
18:59:51 <eihrul> school has been really distracting though
19:00:00 <water> (thx btw for all progresS)
19:00:06 <water> i understand
19:00:28 <water> but you can imagine what i deal with in my job
19:01:16 <water> eih: any forseeable way to get more people involved helpfully?
19:01:29 <eihrul> sure
19:01:42 <eihrul> *documentation*
19:01:45 <water> heh
19:02:00 <eihrul> *planning* :)
19:02:11 <water> welll
19:02:16 <water> the planning bit i have no clue on
19:02:45 <eihrul> that's pretty bad
19:02:56 <water> i seem to barely have time to manage my financial life
19:03:26 <water> eih: well it would help if i knew a competent programmer IRL
19:04:02 <eihrul> i'm not necessarily talking about planning out the complete implementation of a slate system
19:04:11 <eihrul> but definitely planning out all that should be implemented :)
19:04:43 <water> dude the reason for the interpreter is so i can experiment and plan *based* on that
19:05:06 <water> this isn't productive as is
19:05:33 <eihrul> i'm aware
19:05:40 <water> there needs to be something that will get me to write properly again
19:06:24 <water> which completely eludes me atm
19:06:33 <eihrul> <water:#tunes> i don't know for sure how to approach our mis-understandings on this
19:06:37 <eihrul> ???
19:06:39 <water> otherwise, the arrow paper and slate docs would already have been updated
19:06:52 <water> eih: between Fare and i
19:07:04 <eihrul> well, what mis-understandings specifically?
19:07:37 <water> that stuff about clear distinctions between system and meta-system and Fare's misgivings about namespaces
19:09:07 <eihrul> well, isn't the idea behind tunes that these systems are intentionally blurry?
19:09:46 <eihrul> or is it that they are just easily accessable, respectively?
19:10:25 <water> perhaps, or also that the systems are inherently incapable of "full genericity" whatever that means
19:11:08 <eihrul> dunno, but fare seems to have a less grandiose perspective of tunes in person than in writing :)
19:11:30 <water> yeah i noticed
19:11:51 <water> this came up earlier, too
19:13:08 <Fare> it's about making a clear distinction between levels, and allowing to blur
19:13:23 <Fare> but if yuo start blurred, it's too late to clear
19:13:26 <water> how so?
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19:13:37 <water> i don't think so
19:14:14 <water> unless you have some kind of theorem which suggests this
19:14:32 <water> (which most likely has too limiting assumptions anyway, but i digress)
19:15:25 <Fare> I have examples in the case of LISP & FORTH systems
19:15:38 <Fare> crosscompilation is a bitch
19:16:09 <water> why, though?
19:16:32 <eihrul> what really needs to be cross-compiled besides the bootstrap parts?
19:16:32 <Fare> and you basically end up rewritnig ad-hoc tools for it whereas 90% of the code is already there, but limited to reflective assumptions
19:16:37 <water> i think you mis-place or mis-analyze the cause
19:16:52 <Fare> eih: x-compile is _always_ needed
19:17:24 <Fare> when you change anything deep in the system; when you port; when you develop embedded apps; etc
19:17:47 <Fare> when you develop experimental tactics
19:17:58 <Fare> when you virtualize the system
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19:18:12 <water> this makes no sense to me
19:18:34 <water> why is cross-compilation so special?
19:18:45 <water> (hi kyle)
19:21:21 <water> hm things got pretty quiet
19:21:29 <water> hcf: any luck?
19:23:00 <Fare> it's not special -- it's general. My point.
19:23:26 <Fare> it's reflective compilation being special
19:23:31 <water> no, i mean why is x-compilation an issue at all?
19:23:39 <water> bullshit
19:24:28 <water> so you're suggesting that not having a very clearly-defined model of system-metasystem makes x-compilation difficult *all* *by* *itself*?
19:25:07 <water> iow not having your special MST tower explicit in code would be not just bad, but antithetical to tunes?
19:25:37 <water> ping
19:27:52 <Fare> I'm suggesting that a clearly-defined model will be friendly to x-compilation, and that a system unfriendly to x-compilation is ill-designed.
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19:31:09 <water> i disagree
19:31:29 <water> not in the statement, but in the concepts used to form it
19:32:27 <water> but then this does not help me write slate docs, so i should stop
19:33:03 <Fare> anyway
19:33:52 <water> does anyone know how to stop writers' block?
19:34:04 <water> or rather, *my* seeming block?
19:34:06 <eihrul> well, you write
19:34:34 water gives eihrul a point for originality
19:35:14 <Kyle> I stop it by writing in an exclusivly top down manner.
19:35:14 <water> that's not the problem
19:35:17 <eihrul> but generally, i'd assume its just a specific case of procrastination :)
19:35:31 <Kyle> )
19:35:40 <water> why am i procrastinating, though?
19:36:12 <eihrul> well, i'd assume because you're not altogether pleased with the subject of discourse :)
19:36:59 <water> well, that's true, but how does that get fixed?
19:37:11 <eihrul> obviously, you need to fix the idea :)
19:37:22 <water> which idea?
19:37:31 <eihrul> well, what are you trying to write? :P
19:37:53 <water> i'm not sure, in terms of its form
19:38:49 <eihrul> well, i mean, the general subject here :P
19:39:46 <water> dunno... sometimes i think of slate in terms of the ideas that have been established, and at other times i am looking at how to take the HLL spec and see slate in it
19:40:08 <water> i guess this needs to be the overall theme of the docs
19:40:20 <water> (or not?)
19:41:22 <eihrul> well, that is, if the HLL and slate ideas even align at this point?
19:41:50 <water> is that a question?
19:42:02 <eihrul> in light of fare's recent discussion, yep
19:42:31 <water> they do, but he doesn't see it
19:42:46 <water> names in slate are not what he thinks they are
19:42:51 <water> (imo)
19:43:58 <water> if someone can manage to get me to write, i guarantee i will stay up all night to do it
19:44:54 <lar1> Just start putting ideas down until is mushes togheter in to an orginized form?
19:44:58 <Kyle> maybe write a doc, directed to Fare, that describes the differences between yours and his perspectives.
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19:45:25 <water> that's just it, his perspective is molded by lots of french-centric CS
19:45:39 <water> which i don't quite follow
19:46:49 <water> lar1: that's how the original crappy docs were made
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19:48:12 <water> hm what to do
19:49:09 <water> sorry guys, i guess tunes planning is diseased
19:49:11 <water> /
19:49:33 <water> and i think i caught something from Fare :/
19:50:05 <water> hm
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19:50:14 <Kyle> you would not keep to the Tunes spirit if you were healthy
19:50:21 <lar1> heh
19:50:37 <water> Fare's idea of a distinction being crisp between the system and meta-system has flaws
19:51:03 <water> but that's an intuition right now
19:51:24 <water> for one, universality of evaluation seems like a crappy concept
19:51:36 <water> (in and of itself)
19:51:57 <water> like how in Lisp, literals "evaluate to themselves"
19:54:10 <water> did that manage to be clear to anybody?
19:54:52 <eihrul> well, literals don't evaluate to themselves
19:55:03 <eihrul> more like there is no applicable way to evaluate them :)
19:55:40 <water> which means what to you?
19:55:57 <eihrul> means that its been normalized :)
19:56:17 <water> which is relative imo
19:56:28 <eihrul> well, relative to the set of reduction rules :)
19:59:30 <water> hm
19:59:56 <water> ok we have established circularity (which i anticipated)
20:00:05 <water> now what do we do with it?
20:00:15 <water> or maybe, what does slate do with it?
20:01:00 <water> as opposed to lisp or forth
20:02:13 <eihrul> well, i'd imagine something very similar to lisp and forth, much to your dismay :P
20:02:21 <eihrul> atleast, generally
20:02:30 <water> why?
20:02:46 <water> we can mmodularize our types into namespaces with their respective MOs
20:04:48 <water> ultimately, i like the arrow idea the best of course
20:05:38 <water> but then that's one of the reasons why i think arrow is a superset of tunes, because Fare obviously doesn't want a system with that flexibility
20:07:40 <water> hello?
20:10:10 <eihrul> ?
20:10:59 <water> this just feels one-sided
20:12:31 water is lapsing into that feeling of frustration again
20:13:42 <water> i'm starting to feel like slate isn't a worthwhile attempt at the HLL
20:15:28 <eihrul> then what is? ocaml with source matching? :P
20:15:35 <water> no
20:16:28 <water> i would kill to have someone to discuss this with IRL
20:17:15 eihrul is going to sleep.
20:17:38 <water> bah
20:17:54 <eihrul> what good would it do for me to not?
20:17:59 <water> damn it, you've been the most responsive person
20:18:13 <water> i dunno, i'm just frustrated
20:18:45 <water> go sleep
20:19:06 <eihrul> the problems will still be here by tomorrow morning, lest you find a solution... i promise :)
20:19:08 <water> i'll try to drag some help out of these sometimes-lurkers
20:19:16 <water> i KNOW
20:19:22 <water> that's what bugs me :/
20:19:34 <water> they'll never leave me alone
20:20:37 <eihrul> sure they will
20:20:44 <water> i just want to get this cycle over with, and get some credit for it
20:21:43 <water> eihrul: i've been working on this stuff in some way or another for 7 years now
20:22:27 <water> it's only gotten worse with time
20:23:12 <eihrul> maybe just 7 years of bad luck? :)
20:23:21 <water> AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
20:23:31 <water> no, 7 years of learning
20:23:42 <water> maybe just 2 of bad luck
20:24:02 <eihrul> isn't learning the problem is more complicated than you originally thought necessarily bad? :)
20:24:06 <water> i want to write, but i can't
20:24:24 <water> that's not what i learned
20:24:53 <water> i'm merely learning how much others have to learn before they understand my ideas
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20:25:16 <water> hi
20:25:40 <Derek> *greet*
20:25:49 <water> have we met?
20:25:51 <eihrul> well, time to sleep and think about PRE, my one comfort lately :)
20:26:01 <water> cya eihrul
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20:26:14 <Derek> water, not really, I'm Derek :)
20:26:25 <water> ok, hi derek
20:26:38 <water> how familiar are you with tunes?
20:26:43 <Derek> normally "Mobious", but, Derek for now, so ppl can recognise me from the mailing list 
20:27:16 <water> ok
20:27:27 <water> care to discuss anything in particular?
20:27:31 <Derek> water, becoming more familier everyday.  Havent done all of the prerequisite reading, I admit
20:27:59 <water> derek: tha's ok, there's practically an encyclopedia of it
20:28:19 <Derek> what is the differance between, say, Slate and Lisp?
20:28:51 <water> slate is based on names connecting objects together in a graph
20:29:00 <Derek> ahh
20:29:06 <water> lisp is based on a kind of the lambda calculus
20:29:32 <water> with primitive syntactic types (the cons cell) included
20:30:04 <water> slate code is nothing but path branches through the object graph and calls to the objects' meta-objects
20:30:33 <water> (which amounts to unquotation and evaluation)
20:31:02 <Derek> hey, thats a lot like I was thinking about yesterday with my abstraction that I created, which I called "contexts"
20:31:03 <water> have you looked at the stuff online?
20:31:18 <Derek> only a little
20:32:01 <water> it needs updating anyway
20:32:13 <water> which we were just discussing, actually
20:32:22 <water> and which i am currently vexed about
20:32:54 <Derek> I was thinking, you have a context, which basicly, contains elements (which are contexts), and may impose restrictions.
20:33:49 <water> slate's simpler than that at the base level
20:34:03 <water> otoh it moves all customizations to the meta-level
20:35:01 <water> the MO (meta-object of an object) basically is a whole architecture of parts that interact to determine how an object acts as a whole
20:35:29 <Derek> The "root context" of the system has a context which "copies" the current context, and one which adds to the current context.  The secound level is the machine context, which (is in practicality the root level) defines the ...
20:35:29 <Derek> relationship between the language and the machine (basicly the compiler), and some other essentials.  The third context would contain what amounts to the operating system, with security restrictions and whatnot.
20:36:01 <Derek> _I_ thought it was a good idea. =]
20:36:14 <water> hm
20:36:35 <Derek> not sure how the "impose restrictions" would work, but, i'm sure it could be figured out.  
20:36:58 <water> that's a good idea, but i'm approaching roughly the same goal from another angle
20:37:10 <Derek> are you the slate guy then :)
20:37:13 <water> and of course i want language purity first
20:37:17 <water> yep
20:37:21 <water> also the arrow guy
20:38:19 <water> did you read that piece of crap i wrote about arrow? :)
20:39:11 <Derek> language purity, not really possable.  Ether your entire system is running in some sort of interpreter, or like my idea, the intepreter (translator, whatever) is defined in the language itself, but is acompanied by its ...
20:39:12 <Derek> translation (into micro code), which is essentially the entry point of the system.
20:39:35 <Derek> no, I didn't read it.
20:40:14 <water> well, what you just described is what tunes is about (roughly)
20:40:22 <water> except...
20:40:28 <Derek> Just for kicks and giggles, are there any "virtual machines" out there that are nice for makeing toy operating systems on?
20:40:39 <water> there is lots of research working on improving that situation for performance and other reasons
20:40:55 <water> you mean like a bytecode VM?
20:41:00 <Derek> sure
20:41:06 <water> abi squeak?
20:41:07 <abi> squeak is a cool pure oo language descended from Smalltalk, at http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ or at http://www.squeak.org/ or The open source mouse that roars!
20:41:33 <water> there's also SqueakOS and SqeuakNOS
20:41:47 <Derek> shoot, more stuff to read.  
20:41:52 <water> heh
20:42:09 <water> i am becoming rather proficient at Smalltalking lately
20:42:32 <water> unfortunately, i have little time for any of this stuff
20:42:43 <Derek> not that I dont love it, but, not enouph time.  its like the "problem" of having a lot of money, but not enouph to buy everything you want :)
20:43:59 <water> i suppose so
20:45:20 <Derek> The idea of contexts, i got from my reflection <g> on how the brain might work (and what sort of usefull ideas I could get for software design).  It also bears a resemblance to those "frame" things my LISP teacher was ...
20:45:20 <Derek> balthering about.
20:45:25 <Derek> blathering rather
20:45:42 <water> yes frames are interesting
20:47:14 <Derek> I was initially thinking about what mechinism in the mind allows it to look at (1 + (2 + 3))
20:47:17 <water> hm
20:47:30 <water> maybe you really should read the arrow paper and give me some feedback
20:47:42 water shrugs
20:48:07 <water> mechanisms don't seem a very useful concept to discuss when speaking of the mind
20:48:23 <Derek> heh, cool.  got all sorts of tests this week.  mostly cake.  I'll read the arrow thingy saterday, if my hangover isn't to bad :P
20:48:49 <Derek> perhaps mechanisms is the wrong word.
20:49:07 <Derek> we seem to get into trouble with that a lot :)
20:49:12 <water> have you ever read "thought and language" by vygotsky?
20:49:34 <Derek> no.
20:50:22 <water> it has some really interesting perspectives on cognition through a kind of developmental psychology
20:50:52 <water> i find that a lot of AI/CogSci people really totally lack that perspective
20:51:04 <water> and especially CS people
20:53:02 <Derek> hmm.  My crack-pot theory is that the "mechinism" for recursion, or attention (same thing), is that, the mind cycles through two states.  One, everything relevent to whats going, all relations flash at once.  Two, some ...
20:53:05 <Derek> processe selects the strongest (most relevent) associations.  (explains "brain waves")
20:53:47 <Derek> of course, i should just bother to read, and find out if my theory is either well known fact or makes no sence at all.
20:54:22 <water> yeah i went through that process for a while :)
20:54:53 <water> it took a long time until i was sure that i hadn't done something stupid by developing the arrow idea
20:55:24 <water> now if only i can improve my papers on the subject :)
20:55:54 <Derek> I'll make sure to read it.  It was posted right up there on the front of the website, if I remember.
20:55:58 <water> since my current writings are woefully out of date with my current state of knowledge and understanding
20:57:12 water is currently reading a paper on partial evaluation and higher-order rewriting
20:58:12 <Derek> I am way behind you.  I started reading a book on multi agents systems.  (with the shocking title of "Multi Agent Systems")
20:58:37 <water> heh i read that book at a bookstore once
20:58:58 <Derek> I decided to take it home with me.
20:59:18 <water> most of the stuff there is in programming languages that are suited for the semantics
20:59:36 <water> (see dmoz.org's proglang section for some)
21:01:36 <water> brb
21:01:49 <Derek> I dont think I have the dicipline for grad school, nor the GPA, but abstract is my gig I think.  Dont know for sure what sort of job I want, not even sure I want to finish with school (I feel like its waisting my time, I have ...
21:01:51 <Derek> all the requirements, just need an assload of electives).
21:02:19 <Derek> I'm a head in the clouds type of guy.
21:03:34 <Derek> If I could get paid doing stuff like this research, I would be happy.
21:04:00 <water> so would i
21:04:07 <water> which is why i hate my job
21:11:10 <Derek> actually, software engineering, just designing applications, wouldn't be to boring.  Better if I got to boss people around.  Much doubt that I would get hired into that sort of a position.
21:11:33 <water> consulting works, too
21:12:03 <Derek> how do you get started consulting.  join a firm, i suppose
21:12:41 <water> heh i actually did a little of it in high school :)
21:13:43 <water> seriously at least get a master's in cs
21:15:37 <Derek> my gpa is about 2.1, it might get somewhat higher though.
21:15:45 <water> ouch
21:18:21 <Derek> simply because I get apathetic about stuff that I need to do a lot.  Its an issue that I am only slowly overcoming.
21:19:31 <Derek> but thats what I mean about dicipline
21:20:00 <Derek> chat later, got stuff to do :)
21:21:13 <water> ok
21:21:32 lar1 needs to adopt that policy as well /
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23:02:03 <water> abi merlin
23:02:03 <abi> merlin is at http://www.lsi.usp.br/~jecel/merlin.html
23:02:12 <lar1> Ok
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