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08:18:26 <water> hey all
08:33:05 <karltk> hey water
08:33:08 <karltk> long time.
08:33:12 <water> indeed
08:33:27 <water> what's new?
08:35:42 <karltk> I'm back to uni, working on my master's thesis again.
08:35:50 <water> ok
08:35:55 <water> on what, may i ask?
08:35:58 <karltk> And the C++ parser in SDS is no longer dumping core when I parse the C standard library.
08:36:13 <water> heh that's always good
08:37:09 <karltk> Nothing particularily exciting; extending a framework for program transformations on programs written in an algebraic style.
08:37:34 <water> actually that sounds pretty interesting
08:37:51 <karltk> I certainly hope it will be.
08:38:15 <water> reminds me of maude and a few other languages
08:38:25 <karltk> The idea is to allow optimization of programs on a higher level than in a compiler's backend.
08:38:38 water nods
08:39:10 <karltk> unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of choosing the language I want to do this with, since it's part of an existing system for writing hpc programs.
08:39:36 <water> well, what about choosing the IL? :)
08:40:06 <karltk> I could do that. But that too would be restricted to what compilers exist on the hardware we have at our disposal.
08:40:25 <water> hm
08:40:38 <karltk> This test are mostly performed on an Origin 2000, so C, C++ and Fortran are the only real ILs of I could select from.
08:40:47 <karltk> This/the
08:40:54 <water> yeah, i suppose... besides, an SSA language (which is likely what you'll get) would be simple enough to use
08:41:09 <water> "Origin 2000"?
08:41:22 <water> those ILs would be terrible
08:42:08 <karltk> SGI origin 2000, also known as Cray.
08:42:15 <water> ahhh
08:42:42 <water> there isn't a concurrent functional or SSA language for it?
08:43:20 <karltk> I suppose there is. However, I'm not sure using another IL than C++ (which is used now) will gain any performance at all.
08:43:37 <karltk> However, it certainly is an idea to look into. 
08:43:40 <water> i suppose
08:44:15 <water> you *could* just make an SSA language pre-processed into C++, but that might be more effort than its worth
08:46:23 <karltk> I fear it would be. There's another guy doing the profiling on the code that's output, to find alternative implementation approaches.
08:46:45 <water> well, good luck
08:46:51 <karltk> Thanks. 
08:47:09 <karltk> I've heard slight rumours you too might be doing something more interesting soon...
08:47:11 water is getting interviewed for an R&D job today )
08:47:18 <water> yep
08:47:25 <karltk> That's probably what I heard about.
08:47:30 <water> there's also VC money as an alternative
08:47:51 water just met a startling number of VC millionaires who like him and his ideas
08:47:55 <karltk> How do you estimate your chances of getting out of your current situation ?
08:48:12 <water> well, enough money will get me out
08:48:24 <karltk> You can buy yourself out ?
08:48:24 <water> but whether its a hassle or not is unknown
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08:48:32 <water> yep
08:48:40 <karltk> Legally ?
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08:49:13 <water> yes, although there are stipulations that would have to be met... most likely just red tape
08:50:17 <karltk> I really wish you all the best with this project.
08:50:27 <water> thanks :)
08:50:38 <water> btw the job offer is for a learning research group
08:50:53 <karltk> you'll do r&d on learning ?
08:51:11 <water> well...
08:51:26 <water> the impression i'm getting is that it's somewhat like what was going on at xerox parc with smalltalk
08:51:37 <water> except in different directions
08:51:45 <karltk> how so ?
08:51:53 <water> they were requiring smalltalk and scheme experience
08:52:13 <water> dunno, i'm going to ask, though
08:52:29 <karltk> keep me appraised, if you can
08:52:35 <water> sure
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09:08:33 <water> re
09:08:42 <Fare> err
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09:38:06 <water> hey eih
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12:12:34 <Miellaby> Hello.
12:12:39 <Fare> salut
12:12:44 <Miellaby> Bonjour Fare.
12:12:59 <Miellaby> Pas beaucoup de nouvelles sur le site;
12:13:03 <Fare> non
12:13:09 <Fare> où es-tu?
12:13:44 <Miellaby> Et bien, chez moi
12:13:51 <Fare> où habites-tu?
12:13:53 <Miellaby> a Lannion en Bretagne
12:14:01 <Miellaby> ici, il a fait beau.
12:14:05 <Miellaby>   ... hum;
12:14:08 <Fare> oh, c'est vrai, tu as du me le dire déjà
12:14:20 <Miellaby> J'ai bcp pensé à un système réflexif cette nuit.
12:14:40 <Miellaby> Qqe chose dans le prolongement du papier de Water.
12:14:41 <Fare> (let's go on in english for our readers)
12:14:52 <Fare> having nightmares about reflective systems?
12:15:02 <Miellaby> Hem. I don't speak english fluently. I'll try ...
12:15:30 <Miellaby> 'Arrows' - 'homo-iconic' - systems !
12:15:48 <Miellaby> I'm not a mathematician, unfortunnately.
12:15:59 <water> hm
12:16:14 <water> homo-iconic <=> all values are first-class values
12:16:32 <Fare> the word is misleading though
12:16:34 <water> (not something intuitively positable about arrows, but oh well)
12:16:38 <Miellaby> I though about a interesting kind of building block. A set of arrows with a same head.
12:17:03 <water> miel: yes, that's what a meta-graph looks like
12:17:14 <water> it is really time for me to overhaul that paper
12:17:15 <Miellaby> I called it a "cell".
12:17:27 <water> it's a good thing i'm getting a new portable machine
12:18:03 <Miellaby> What's your job, Water?
12:18:20 <water> currently, i am a nuclear tech in the navy
12:18:41 <Miellaby> wow
12:18:45 <water> although that might be abruptly changed, if my current situation is correct
12:18:59 <Miellaby> Do you carry a radio-card to survey your exposure ?
12:19:15 <Miellaby> your situation is bound to change ?
12:19:20 <water> sort of... i have a dosimeter in a plastic capsule
12:19:47 <water> miel: i have received numerous good research job offers and am in contact with venture capitalists
12:20:16 <water> anyway
12:20:22 <Miellaby> Did you progress in the implementation of your system. I remember about a Smalltalk model.
12:20:45 <water> slate is still being developed as a language
12:20:46 <Fare> water: do you believe in some international VC funding?
12:20:54 <Fare> for a common project?
12:20:54 <water> Fare: perhaps
12:21:04 <Miellaby> That's would be nice if you could get a job which corresponds to TUNES.
12:21:10 <water> *shrug*
12:21:17 <water> yes it would
12:21:21 <Miellaby> VC ?
12:21:28 <water> venture capital
12:21:42 Miellaby has to learn.
12:22:12 <Miellaby> Is anybody know a good english-frensh online translator?
12:22:43 <water> is babelfish not sufficent?
12:23:14 <Fare> Miellaby: capital-risque
12:23:29 <Fare> high stakes, high risk
12:24:09 <water> i'm not sure about the 'high' part ;)
12:24:57 <water> i.e. i don't like lots of business pressure
12:25:37 <Miellaby> I'm relativly efficient in C programming. I wish I could star programming Arrows or Something like that.
12:26:04 water needs to get some tools and people together
12:26:15 <Miellaby> Sure.
12:26:24 <water> apparently i am 100 times more effective when i have people to interact with face-to-face
12:27:31 <Miellaby> face-to-face in the RL life?
12:27:36 <water> yes
12:27:50 <water> i know very few programmers IRL
12:28:07 <water> that just recently changed, but the change is not complete
12:29:34 <Miellaby> Most of programmers can't even understand that there's a remaining problem today in data computing. They are satisfied by what they've got.
12:29:47 water nods
12:30:14 <water> the problem is, i'm surrounded by people at work who *can't* let me actually program because they will never be able to maintain it
12:30:58 <water> but that's irrelevant
12:31:03 <Miellaby> I just can't speak about my reflexions with any of my friends at job.
12:31:22 <water> miel: imagine if you couldn't discuss anything you knew at all
12:31:49 <Miellaby> That's part of the true.
12:32:02 <Miellaby> You're here, luckily.
12:32:04 <water> like your employer forcing you to design a database out of MS Access with no code at all
12:32:32 <Miellaby> I'm working on Oracle, at this time.
12:32:53 <Miellaby> I guess it must be better.
12:33:09 <water> i should mention that my bosses want an application that does something that requires the flexiblity of smalltalk
12:33:36 <Miellaby> I wish I could work in a research topic.
12:33:52 water decides that complaining does help
12:33:57 <water> oops
12:34:01 <water> s/does/doesn't/
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12:34:29 <Miellaby> I found 3 or 4 fundamental arrows.
12:34:48 <water> so anyway, i just need time to write up the new (vastly clearer and more concrete) arrow paper, as well as finishing up the arrow code and slate docs and code
12:34:55 <water> "fundamental"?
12:35:27 <water> miel: if you scan the tunes mlist archives for my posts, you'll find more recent arrow material
12:35:32 <Miellaby> well, I though about a way to implement procedural programming via a set of arrows.
12:35:42 <water> in particular, Oct 99 to the present
12:36:06 <Miellaby> I'll have a look to your material.
12:36:46 <Miellaby> An arrow of Action/Activation seems to be necessary.
12:36:53 <water> yes
12:37:21 <water> the way i've done it most recently is to treat a graph as a function/relation that can be applied to arrows
12:37:43 <water> and encapsulate that as a system-wide supported graph
12:38:38 <Miellaby> who'da though that :)
12:39:04 <water> i basically figured out how to make a lisp style of operation
12:39:20 <water> for example, a Head and Tail reference reifier graph
12:39:40 <water> (which is described in the squeak code and on tunes mlist)
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12:40:34 <water> damn it, the new tunes mlist stuff is not shown on the web site
12:41:52 <Miellaby> You look to have clear ideas about it. From my point, I'm dreaming ...
12:42:25 <water> well it took me a while to figure out this stuff
12:42:32 <water> i am still researching things
12:43:40 <water> hm the web search of the tunes mlist doesn't work
12:44:56 <Miellaby> I though about a simple and illustrativ example. A siren generator (a piece of code featuring an integer and a more elementary low level sound operation).
12:46:07 <water> arrow doesn't have built-in programming semantics like that
12:46:18 <Miellaby> Water : What do you think about my poetical metaphor : Cells, organismus, and so one?
12:46:29 <water> it's an interface *to* those semantics, more like
12:46:43 Miellaby is still searching a french/english dictionnary
12:46:48 <water> metaphor for what?
12:46:58 <water> hierarchical organization?
12:47:37 <water> meta-system transitions?
12:47:56 <Miellaby> well, that was just to tell about something more funny than a meta-graph entity...
12:48:25 <Miellaby> all right. Thats' ridiculous.
12:48:36 <water> hm?
12:49:25 <Miellaby> It is quite simply riducule.
12:50:03 <Miellaby> (what I said).
12:50:16 <water> oh
12:51:29 <Miellaby> In fact. I've got my own dropped OS project. I used to call it Cell.
12:52:16 <water> oh
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12:54:20 Miellaby is sorry.
12:54:55 <water> *shrug*
12:54:56 <water> ok
12:56:35 <Miellaby> In my dropped project, I was searching for efficiency.
12:57:12 <Miellaby> [...] during operations which were said to be high level ones, such as inheritance resolving.
12:58:57 <Miellaby> I saw that I failed in several steps such as setting my mind to a reflexiv and relativ set of relations and definitions.
13:00:02 <Miellaby> At this time, I found the arrow proposal, and now I'm totally seducted.
13:00:28 <water> yes well the idea needs work
13:00:38 <water> as well as the implementation
13:01:31 <water> "The state of the art for Arrow Specs" email thread might help
13:01:34 <water> http://lists.tunes.org/list/tunes/9910/threads.html
13:02:29 <Miellaby> AT this time I'm looking at a furry comics ;)
13:02:53 <water> are you a furry?
13:03:09 <Miellaby> I love furry picture. I'm sorry, really.
13:03:35 <water> don't apologize so much
13:05:01 <Miellaby> that's strange, actually...
13:05:26 <Miellaby> I was already like that well before knowing Internet.
13:05:33 <Miellaby> s/well/much
13:07:41 <Miellaby> That was a chock when I found my first pictures. I though I was the single guy to be fan of anthropormorfic caracters.
13:09:17 <Miellaby> of course, that's not the topic of this channel;
13:13:14 <Miellaby> Someone ?
13:13:27 <water> what?
13:14:04 <Miellaby> I don't manage to translate 'RTM'.
13:14:24 <Miellaby> Registred Trade Mark ?
13:14:32 <water> "read the manual"? :)
13:14:43 <Miellaby> What does it mean at the end of a sentence ?
13:14:47 <water> yeah probably registered trade mark
13:15:05 <water> it depends on the context
13:15:57 <Miellaby> look at this one : 'The judges said I bowled them over RTM'.
13:16:43 <Miellaby> uh oh. Indeed, RTM doesn't belong to the sentence.
13:17:44 <Miellaby> reflexivity would conduce to fractal
13:18:03 <Miellaby> structures, won't it ?
13:18:39 <water> self-similarity is a possibility, yes
13:19:07 <water> like co-inductive definitions of things
13:20:42 <Miellaby> In the same way, every algorithms involved by the canonical operators of the OS are certainly to be recursiv. I think mainly about the GC algorithm.
13:25:16 Miellaby has the feeling he's telling anything.
13:26:25 <Miellaby> bon, ben au revoir. Bye.
13:27:31 <water> bye
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15:14:21 <water`> re
15:14:26 <Kyle> re
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15:15:49 <water`> hm?
15:15:57 <nate37> heh
15:16:00 water` had connection problems for a little while
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16:11:32 <water> hi
16:11:47 <bristle> hi, can I talk about music in here?
16:11:53 <water> oh
16:11:56 <bristle> once
16:12:00 <water> no this is for the tunes project
16:12:15 <bristle> time to find out what that is...
16:12:21 <water> abi tunes
16:12:23 <abi> tunes is a free reflective computing system at http://www.tunes.org or to programming languages what the internet is to networks
16:13:18 <bristle> interesting
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16:16:33 <water> grr
16:16:37 <water> re
16:16:54 <water> of course the visitor is gone
16:27:46 water contemplates cleaning the channel out just to see who is here
16:28:05 <water> *ping*
16:29:11 <eihrul> go for it
16:29:24 [MODE] ChanServ set mode: +o water
16:29:34 <water> care to continue discussion eih?
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16:30:35 <water> hm that ban won't stick :)
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16:31:25 <water> damn auto-rejoin
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16:31:47 <water> abi seen smkl?
16:32:27 <water> heh 9 days
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16:32:36 <eihrul> well, banning is a tad strong
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16:32:43 <water> i'll turn it off
16:32:56 <water> it has to stay on long enough for auto-rejoin to give up
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16:33:23 <lar> hmm
16:33:27 <water> heh
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16:40:10 <water> eih: busy?
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16:44:04 <eihrul> water: not really
16:44:34 <water> so what do you think would be the way to pass around the stack in slate?
16:45:43 <water> i mean a way that makes sense to encapsulate into the interpreter
16:47:38 <eihrul> well, just as any other object :)
16:48:12 <water> well it just seems discongruous to "pass around
16:48:18 <water> " objects like this
16:48:44 <water> especially since we already are using that mechanism to return values when "." is invoked
16:48:56 <water> (up the "<" chain)
16:49:10 <eihrul> well, note: you can define a new meta-object that abstracts this
16:49:24 <water> hm
16:49:36 <eihrul> that meta-objects can use as their meta-object :)
16:49:45 <water> well, so far, our MOs have been static kinds of things afaict
16:50:09 <water> with this system, the MO would change on practically every message call
16:50:32 <eihrul> well, i haven't fully considered the implications of it yet :)
16:50:36 <water> i guess that's not so bad, just a little complex once we start implementing parts of the MO in slate
16:51:15 <water> btw all of this changing of state is what got me interested in linearity in the first place
16:51:41 <water> so we wouldn't dump a ton of stuff on the GC every time we wanted to run a "hello world"
16:58:59 <water> what do you think?
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17:14:04 <Fare> basile showed me: http://reports-archive.adm.cs.cmu.edu:80/anon/2000/CMU-CS-00-161F.ps
17:14:41 water DL's it
17:15:16 <water> what's the topic?
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17:15:52 water just found the abstract
17:16:08 <Fare> about gc and linear typing. but I'm not all satisfied by the treatment. I'd be interesting to analyze why
17:16:14 <water> ok
17:17:22 <water> hm this DL is taking a while
17:19:03 <Fare> ok, I know the problem
17:19:19 <water> heh before i even get to look at it :)
17:19:25 <water> what's the problem?
17:19:36 <Fare> most linear typing systems will consider linearity as a pervasive property of a given cell
17:19:43 <water> oh
17:19:56 <water> and therefore...?
17:20:03 <Fare> which is an interesting point of view, but doesn't allow for a lot of "optimizations" that we normally do
17:20:33 <water> like what? linearity per name?
17:20:39 <Fare> whereas for instance, we transfer property of a cell to a closure, and the closure may internally use the cell multiple times.
17:21:21 <Fare> of course, if there are escaping non-linear continuations, the notion of "internal use" becomes much more limited
17:21:46 <water> sure
17:22:10 <Fare> but then, with cell-based linearity, there shouldn't be escaping non-linear continuations, either.
17:23:11 <Fare> the notion of a cell being the "property" of another cell seems like an essential feature to me, that the type/whatever system should express nicely and directly.
17:24:08 <water> ok
17:24:19 <Fare> I think that it also covers the notion of "domain" that my boss is chasing.
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17:24:41 <water> i wouldn't know what you mean by "domain" in this case
17:25:33 <Fare> also, the "ownership" may be attached to meta-operations, but it is unclear to me how this can be done in a nice way wrt cleanly extending the semantics of usual ownerless calculi
17:25:56 <water> you've lost me now
17:26:23 <Fare> water: well, I mean that when you allocate within a logical zone, the zone may actually specify the underlying implementation of basic operations in a non-standard way
17:26:27 <Fare> ok
17:26:31 <Fare> let's rewind the tape.
17:26:57 <Fare> This is about managing resources (including GC), controling access, and other meta-stuff.
17:27:00 <Fare> ok?
17:27:37 <water> hm
17:28:01 <Fare> The "basic" (lambda, pi, etc) calculi are ones that take resources as granted and resource-management as uniformly implicit.
17:28:08 <Fare> arq
17:28:09 <water> ok, slate doesn't use the concept of ownership except as a linear "<" slot
17:28:19 water nods
17:28:57 <Fare> my boss wants me to make a _nice_ calculus to explicitly manage resources in a way that cleanly extends basic calculi
17:29:21 <Fare> we know that linear logic will come into play somewhere, but we dunno how exactly
17:29:25 <water> good luck
17:30:10 <Fare> well, we have a notion of domain, such that every object resides inside a domain.
17:30:21 Rhamphoryncus tries to recall who invited him here originally
17:30:32 Fare whistles innocently
17:30:36 <water> but that doesn't seem very useful as a calculus' concept
17:30:54 <Rhamphoryncus> Fare: it was you then?  I"m never sure...
17:31:23 <Fare> well, it is actually useful.
17:31:38 <water> for example, at what abstraction level exists these domains?
17:31:50 <water> is it just like a common lisp package or something else?
17:32:18 <Fare> one way to see domains is as ABCL/R2-like metaobjects.
17:32:23 <water> i.e. a one-level first order notation
17:32:46 <water> damn, it's been a while since i looked at ABCL/R@'s stuff
17:32:53 <water> s/@/2/
17:33:07 <Fare> however, ABCL/R2 metaobjects give too much power at once. My boss wants ways to factor out this power in controllable ways.
17:33:27 <water> yeah but what guarantees this is possible?
17:33:40 <Fare> also, ABCL/R2 is not very clean in its GC and resources handling.
17:34:01 <Fare> well, it is possible, since he did do it in a few ad-hoc cases.
17:34:11 <water> do what?
17:34:39 <Fare> show particular cases of severe restrictions on meta-objects.
17:34:42 <water> ad-hoc proves little about whether a clean calculus is possible to create
17:35:04 <water> what kind of severe restrictions?
17:35:11 Rhamphoryncus was just arguing with water about kickbanning him from the channel
17:35:30 <Fare> I tried to convince him that the solution was not in allowing per se, and even less in forbidding, but in allowing to forbid
17:36:28 <Fare> i.e. have an expressive enough(*) type system for his meta-objects. (*) which recurses through the problem of expressiveness
17:37:02 <water> is anybody else in the room following this?
17:37:15 <Fare> if you didn't kickban them, maybe
17:37:23 <water> P
17:37:41 <water> i know eihrul and hcf are active
17:38:52 <hcf> water: dont assume activity, my client randomly exec's /whois && /join ;)
17:39:25 <water> well anyway, i'm just not sure i'm following the issues correctly
17:39:36 <water> again, this is probably just a limitation of irc
17:40:02 Rhamphoryncus is still pissed that you banned him for such a lameass reason
17:40:20 <water> oh geez i just did it for a minute
17:40:37 <water> and i explained why i did it and discussed it beforehand
17:40:43 <water> i'm sorry
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17:43:06 <Fare> anyway. The question is: how can domains be inferred in a way that mimics and betters our own habits of thinking in terms of transfering object ownership around.
17:44:01 <Fare> so that the system will automatically do the malloc() _and_ free() that we'd do in the statically-predictable cases, and use GC in other cases.
17:45:23 <water> well, the idea i'm playing with in slate is linearity as a property of names/links
17:45:46 <water> which is determined by a contract arranged at the meta-level
17:45:55 <water> sort of a handshaking
17:47:31 <Rhamphoryncus> hmm
17:48:04 <water> bbiaf (15 minutes)
17:49:55 <water> n/m delay that
18:00:13 <Rhamphoryncus> I wonder... does arguing with water for an hour and a half make up for him banning me?
18:00:30 <lar1> heh
18:00:43 <Rhamphoryncus> seems a suitable revenge, no?
18:00:43 <water> i think only you can answer that question ;)
18:00:48 <Rhamphoryncus> hehe
18:00:59 <Rhamphoryncus> well you did all but tell me to shut up there :)
18:01:29 <Rhamphoryncus> <Rhamphoryncus> let me explain my reasoning
18:01:29 <water> did i forget to tell you to shut up? :)
18:01:30 <Rhamphoryncus> <water> no
18:01:34 <Rhamphoryncus> <water> i don't care
18:01:40 <water> yeah well i'm about to leave
18:01:53 <Rhamphoryncus> hehe
18:01:56 <water> i *am* given leeway to have a personal life, no?
18:02:10 <Rhamphoryncus> hey, YOU provoked me!
18:02:23 <water> heh i think you provoked *yourself*
18:02:31 <Rhamphoryncus> nope
18:02:41 <Rhamphoryncus> it all goes back to Fares inviting me here
18:02:59 <Rhamphoryncus> so blame him, not me
18:03:01 water thinks Rhamphoryncus needs to get out more
18:03:17 <Rhamphoryncus> damn right!
18:03:17 <water> i'll probably bbl tonight
18:03:20 <lar1> ok
18:03:22 Rhamphoryncus goes back to scheming world domination
18:03:26 <water> maybe sober, maybe not :)
18:03:31 <lar1> heh
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18:04:15 <Rhamphoryncus> geeze, slow-ass server.  only pulling 75 kb/s
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18:05:02 Rhamphoryncus MUCH prevers the >300k off of http.ca.debian.org )
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