05:09:30 water joined #tunes 06:55:44 water joined #tunes 07:03:11 bineng joined #tunes 07:06:09 hey bineng! 07:06:24 hi 07:06:40 anything new for you? 07:06:50 water was away for 6 weeks 07:06:53 my neighbour is playing loud music.. 07:07:09 he wants me to get another door if I'm disturbed by it :P 07:07:48 no tunes-related news here 07:08:10 not public anyway 07:08:42 I meant on my side, but yes. 07:08:56 oh ok 07:09:18 You've been occupied somewhere else, right? 07:09:23 has beholder dropped off of the tunes landscape entirely? 07:09:31 pretty much 07:09:34 yeah in the navy :/ 07:10:18 what is it with people committing to tunes and then bailing out when no one's looking? 07:13:00 I guess it's because nothing tangible is happening. 07:13:26 sounds like a blame cycle 07:13:29 And unclear goals & means. 07:13:38 yes 07:13:52 which is stupid 07:14:35 i always recommend people to read every damned link there is on the site and re-read the site every time they think about it at all 07:14:39 What is needed is someone to actively engage in the project. Afaik, not even Fare is doing that. 07:14:58 you're right, he's not really doing it in general 07:15:19 and i have 16 months before i can center my life around anything close to it 07:16:51 I can't really say I'm prepared to take any bigger role, at least not until someone has provided some kind of trustworthy foundation. 07:17:07 I'm not that much into it. 07:17:13 well, that's up to eihrul and i 07:18:09 slate is a lot more well-developed than the public docs suggest, but there's still a long way to go before we can present it 07:19:02 as of now, eihrul's picked up work on pidgin again, since we have a new set of results we like. pidgin basically implements slate at a level similar to self's (i.e. self-style MOs are the primitive ones in pidgin) 07:19:33 which means we'll add laziness atop it 07:20:02 I don't specifically mean the technical part (although that doesn't hurt), but a solid goal spec, with sensible arguments. 07:20:27 i'm concurrently working out the basic slate libraries, the compiler-compiler framework (the thin layer), and an equational system that encompasses as many of tunes' goals as i can manage 07:20:42 ah, well i challenge Fare on that quite often 07:20:43 ...and someone who makes ppl realize it. 07:21:07 Fare has needed someone to question him publically for years 07:21:20 I guess you've not had great success in that so far? 07:21:45 you can't make a good policy without some kind of understanding that can support opposition when (even rhetorically) necessary 07:21:51 P 07:22:02 right 07:22:02 well, *my* understanding has progressed 07:22:23 and i know many things that i still want to challenge Fare on 07:22:40 but his arguments are too vague to attack 07:22:49 That's too bad. 07:23:00 (and coincidentally too vague to directly relate to existing known results) 07:23:08 well, i mean the tunes docs by that 07:23:18 That is what counts. 07:23:20 not necessarily his actual understanding 07:24:04 heh i saw a Woz biography at a bookstore last night 07:24:24 i almost bought it :) 07:24:46 who? 07:24:58 instead i perused it... interesting to see how an ordinary life progressed into making apple ][s and macs 07:25:08 Wozniak 07:25:14 ofc.. 07:25:54 anyway, i think it was worth looking into for parallels and differences between how tunes goes 07:26:16 ..or not goes 07:27:31 i observe yet again my amassing collection of theoretical compsci and logic books and papers 07:27:46 Has it helped you? 07:28:22 a lot of it has... naturally the many pages of proofs are not directly useful as such 07:28:51 but the concepts are worthwhile, mostly to learn the limitations of them and to try to think of better ones 07:29:13 i need to go soon 07:29:18 ok 07:29:26 anyway, i have an ibook on which i play with self 4.1 lately 07:29:41 also lisp, squeak, haskell, ml, and such 07:30:12 not a bad machine at all, although i had to max out the options to be happy with it 07:30:38 hm 07:30:48 i will be back tonight, most likely 07:30:54 8-12 hours from now 07:31:06 it depends on whether or not i meet up with friends 07:31:21 not me.. that' too late for my time zone and recent habits 07:32:02 slate is definitely being worked out, i assure you, but to support tunes, the meta-system has to allow the language paradigm to be reformulated dynamically 07:32:18 which requires some novel techniques 07:32:29 and lots of debate between myself and eihrul 07:32:42 good luck in that, then 07:32:55 yeah, it's all i've got right now :/ 07:33:21 the only thing that really carries over to arrow are the abstract concepts 07:33:35 and for me, arrow counts, not tunes by itself 07:34:10 btw, have you seen Jim Little lately? 07:34:18 not at all 07:35:02 neither have I. He just disappeared. 07:35:34 strange 07:35:53 oh well. tunes needs people who know what Fare's talking about, or they won't be able to "distinguish tunes from magic" 07:36:29 That and the actual talking of Fare. 07:36:39 btw, what i am leaving for is a float in a sensory deprivation tank ;) 07:36:55 ah. I've never tried that. 07:37:04 stress/skin therapy 07:37:12 (the skin part is specific to me) 07:37:25 anyway, i'm off 07:37:29 cya 07:37:31 [QUIT] water quit: The Tao went that-a-way! 07:37:41 [QUIT] bineng quit: studying <k!14> 07:50:14 [QUIT] gREMLiNs quit: Ping timeout for gREMLiNs[195.252.66.62] 07:50:54 karim joined #tunes 07:51:00 hello fare 07:51:19 Fare << ca va ? 07:51:41 Fare << tu te rappelle de moi ? 07:53:06 [QUIT] karim quit: using sirc version 2.211+4KSIRC/1.0 07:58:08 hcf joined #tunes 08:03:39 P1nK_SP1d3r joined #tunes 08:03:48 Fare: hello 08:08:37 [QUIT] hcf quit: Leaving 08:09:24 is there someone that can help me with a shadow file problem here ? 14:46:26 Brianna joined #tunes 14:46:29 clog_ joined #tunes 14:53:02 abi joined #tunes 14:56:09 abi: ruby is also http://www.goto.info.waseda.ac.jp/~fukusima/ruby/index-e.html 14:56:09 okay, hcf. 14:56:09 abi: Bottom-Up Parsing is at http://penguin.wpi.edu:4546/course/cs4533/PLT5print.html 14:56:13 abi: algebraic semiotics is at http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/users/goguen/projs/semio.html 14:56:13 abi: tatami is a system supporting distributed cooperative design, specification, and validation of software (and hardware) systems at http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/groups/tatami/ 14:56:16 abi: hidden algebra is aims to give a semantics for software engineering, and in particular for concurrent distributed object systems at http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/users/goguen/projs/halg.html 14:56:16 abi: bobj is a behavioral specification language at http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/groups/tatami/bobj/ 14:56:19 abi: kumo is a web-based assistant for proofs in first order hidden logic, using OBJ3 as a reduction engine at http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/groups/tatami/kumo/ 14:56:19 abi: duck is the command language for the Kumo proof assistant at http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/groups/tatami/duck.html 14:56:22 abi: duck logic is at http://www.cse.ogi.edu/~nday/Projects/DuckLogic/ 14:56:22 abi: behavior discussion list is subjects: behavioral aspects of compsci and math, hidden algebra, behavioral equational logic, observational logic, coalgebra, and CafeOBJ, BOBJ, Kumo systems at 14:56:25 abi: rewriting is also http://www.csl.sri.com/rewriting 14:56:25 okay, hcf. 14:56:27 abi: coinduction is a powerful technique for proving behavioral properties of (systems of concurrent interacting) objects at http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/groups/tatami/handdemos/doc/coind.htm 14:59:19 water, anyone: icuc, http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/ariola98bisimilarity.html http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/maneth98cooperating.html http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~det/papers.html 14:59:22 http://www.ens.fr/~maribel/papers.html http://www.loria.fr/equipes/protheo/SOFTWARES/ELAN/index-papers.html http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~hago/elan/report.html http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/371472.html 14:59:44 [QUIT] hcf quit: Leaving 15:48:13 Fare joined #tunes 15:52:14 eihrul joined #tunes 16:04:42 mibin joined #tunes 16:05:03 [QUIT] MysticOne quit: See ya! 16:14:39 [QUIT] trans quit: Ping timeout for trans[00-20-78-c9-e5-d1.bconnected.net] 17:22:48 lar1 joined #tunes 17:47:00 fullam joined #tunes 18:40:11 [QUIT] fullam quit: 18:40:23 water joined #tunes 18:40:33 re 18:43:21 damn hcf and his links! :) 19:03:57 hcf joined #tunes 19:19:12 in case it isnt evident from the logs, bespin was down (again!) from ~08:09:24 til 14:46:29 19:21:42 hm 19:35:48 abi: selfish is an umbrella project covering toolsets to do Prototype-based OOP (aka "classless" OOP) in popular languages (Perl and Python, currently, with Java plans) at http://sourceforge.net/projects/selfish/ 19:38:33 yeah it sure is 19:38:46 heh maybe i should post more self related links 19:41:21 "feel free" 19:48:50 [QUIT] smkl quit: Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi] 19:54:07 abi: darwin is at http://javalab.cs.uni-bonn.de/research/darwin/darwin_eng.html 19:54:44 smkl joined #tunes 19:55:49 abi: pboop is Prototype Based Object-Oriented Programming at http://www.mri.mq.edu.au/~kjx/prototypes.html 20:03:47 [QUIT] ink quit: Ping timeout for ink[ppp-206-170-2-82.sntc01.pacbell.net] 20:03:52 [QUIT] smkl quit: Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi] 20:06:48 smkl joined #tunes 20:16:12 abi: tarraingim is a program visualisation system in/for self at http://www.mri.mq.edu.au/~kjx/tgim.html 20:52:33 [QUIT] smkl quit: Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi] 20:53:31 Kyle joined #tunes 20:54:20 hey kyle 20:54:34 hello 20:55:07 smkl joined #tunes 20:55:52 re sami 21:30:40 water: do you have updated slate docs? 21:31:28 [QUIT] water quit: The Tao went that-a-way! 21:34:13 water joined #tunes 21:47:55 [QUIT] hcf quit: Leaving 21:49:29 matthew- joined #tunes 21:52:23 hi matthew 21:52:25 hi 21:53:15 are you familiar with tunes? 21:54:10 I discovered tunes about 2 days ago while searching for a definition of "reflection". I've been eating it up ever since. 21:54:21 ok 21:56:23 well, if you have any questions, just ask 21:56:49 btw we have an infobot, abi, who can supply lots of urls and factoids 22:02:22 Another one bites the dust... 22:02:44 another of what? 22:06:01 Another person suckered into TUNES. :) 22:06:19 heh 22:06:59 it wouldn't be so bad if people didn't get suckered into something they didn't really grok 22:10:30 if tunes only suckered in people who could grok it, then tunes would have had zero members (counting fare) 22:10:51 perhaps 22:49:53 Does homo-iconic mean "something that is understandable to humans" or something that has semantic meaning to humans? 22:50:22 [QUIT] ink quit: Read error to ink[ppp-207-214-211-167.sntc01.pacbell.net]: Connection reset by peer 22:51:33 sigh 22:52:10 it means that a bunch of things can be understood in terms of one basic concept 22:52:18 "homo"="same" 22:52:32 iconos=symbol 23:06:52 maybe #tunes should just go back to being an MP3 channel... eh, water? 23:09:03 P 23:10:08 water - sorry. I guess you're right re: groking and all. 23:12:47 matthew-: shrug, it is a running joke, everyone takes a while to get acquainted with tunes :P 23:13:04 some take more than a year 23:13:30 and they get burned out it the process, usually 23:13:48 [QUIT] _ruiner_ quit: Read error to _ruiner_[24-216-192-59.hsacorp.net]: Connection reset by peer 23:15:00 oh, is that why depression is mentioned so frequently on the members page? 23:17:02 most of those people (read 90%) don't really participate, so no worry 23:23:28 yep 23:50:33 [QUIT] water quit: Ping timeout for water[c207-202-221-160.sea1.cablespeed.com] 23:53:07 Yep. 00:14:15 heh