00:23:49 draugath left #tunes 00:24:50 nate37 left #tunes 02:25:27 smkl joined #tunes 02:25:27 Fare joined #tunes 02:25:27 abi joined #tunes 02:25:27 clog joined #tunes 02:25:27 ult joined #tunes 05:16:48 Fare joined #tunes 06:33:22 eihrul joined #tunes 06:55:31 [QUIT] eihrul quit: Leaving 07:17:08 [QUIT] gREMLiNs quit: I am one who is many 07:32:28 matthew- joined #tunes 07:39:07 [QUIT] ult quit: Read error to ult[149.149.201.30]: Connection reset by peer 07:39:09 ult joined #tunes 07:40:43 [QUIT] Fare quit: Ping timeout for Fare[ppp28-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net] 07:41:00 Fare joined #tunes 08:44:28 eihrul joined #tunes 08:45:46 [QUIT] Fare quit: Ping timeout for Fare[ppp28-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net] 09:20:28 P1nK_SP1d3R joined #tunes 09:20:36 hi ! 09:20:42 Where's Fare ? 09:22:12 abi: beep fare 09:22:13 i beeped fare 09:22:24 hrmm 09:22:29 doesn't seem to be here, try back later 09:25:30 hcf joined #tunes 09:42:15 [QUIT] abi quit: dying by hcf's request 09:43:57 abi joined #tunes 09:51:16 [QUIT] hcf quit: Leaving 10:05:09 [QUIT] tirloni quit: barnes.openprojects.net forward.openprojects.net 10:05:09 [QUIT] gREMLiNs quit: barnes.openprojects.net forward.openprojects.net 10:46:01 Fare joined #tunes 13:59:17 Fare joined #tunes 14:05:00 P1nK_SP1d3r joined #tunes 14:05:06 hi Fare ! 14:15:43 [QUIT] clog quit: Leaving 14:16:02 clog joined #tunes 14:17:21 ult joined #tunes 14:30:57 [QUIT] Fare quit: Ping timeout for Fare[ppp28-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net] 14:31:17 Fare joined #tunes 14:36:31 hi Fare ! 14:41:31 2FFFFFFAAAAAAAARRRRRRREEEEEEEEE 14:41:36 heho 14:41:39 ? 14:42:02 smkl: Fare doesn't want to respond or what ! 14:42:33 Fare is idle 14:42:48 his client just autorejoined 14:42:49 smkl: and what does it mean ? 14:43:30 smkl: he's always connecting to the channel, it is that ? 14:43:38 almost 14:44:04 smkl: but how can we know when he comes ? 14:44:18 when he says something 14:44:20 smkl: he would say something ? 14:44:31 smkl:ok, thanks :) 14:45:06 smkl: i ask because sometimes he can be slow to respond :) 14:45:17 smkl: where are you from ? 14:45:34 from Finland 14:45:55 i'm from Paris 14:46:16 Fare is from paris too? 14:46:21 yes * 14:46:30 i already met him 14:46:50 he's a good singer :) 14:48:00 i don't know how to say , he make "fuuiiit" with his mouth (how can we say that in english ?) 14:48:42 are u implicate in the tunes project too ? 15:13:38 not much 15:13:39 gakuk 15:22:03 Quelle autre vision avais-ut? 15:48:39 eihrul joined #tunes 15:52:11 hcf joined #tunes 16:06:13 Kyle joined #tunes 16:07:03 hi pink 16:09:19 Kyle: hello 16:09:50 what brought you here? 16:09:53 Kyle: sorry but i was discussing with someone 16:10:03 Kyle: me ? 16:10:17 yes you 16:10:51 this channel is quite dead. You will not have to prefix my name each time. These others are lurking. 16:12:18 16:12:43 ^-- eyes that glow in the dark, but no mouth to talk 16:53:20 bye 'vry b'dy ! 16:53:42 P1nK_SP1d3r left #tunes 17:08:26 water joined #tunes 17:08:58 re all 17:10:09 matthew- joined #tunes 17:10:22 hey matt 17:14:24 [NICK] cr_lvngrm changed nick to: coreyr 17:47:33 hi 17:48:22 is there anything you want to talk about? 17:52:17 lar1 joined #tunes 17:53:56 Not yet, sorry. 17:54:38 k 18:07:19 ok, what to apply myself to tonight? 18:09:45 how about docs? 18:10:05 duh 18:10:12 / 18:10:17 how would you suggest i explain things? 18:10:47 have you read my latest tunes posts? 18:10:56 yes 18:11:00 did a single thought cross your mind concerning them? 18:11:07 I forget them 18:11:13 I will look again... 18:16:24 anything yet? 18:16:30 Maybe. 18:16:39 You are in the invention stage. 18:16:48 Only you know what your goal is 18:16:54 oh geez 18:17:12 only you know what you are willing to give up to include more aspects 18:17:16 well, what seems unclear? 18:17:43 I only see a language similar to Forth. The other abilites you mention in your last mail 18:17:54 can not be done with what you have 18:18:06 the fact that it's traversing a lazily-calculated graph means nothing?? 18:18:09 So you are going to make more changes 18:18:23 no 18:18:44 well don't claim you know what i have to do 18:19:01 my claim was vary vague. 18:19:19 no it wasn't 18:19:30 changes is very distinct from elaborations 18:20:05 how? 18:20:47 because without changing the language, i intend to bottom-up styles and specification of various MO's to implement what i'm talking about 18:21:05 changes imply that the language as is is incapable of those things 18:21:32 [NICK] trans-din changed nick to: trans 18:22:08 I am at a loss trying to use Slate for any concrete application. 18:22:30 well do you have any clue what meta-programming could do for slate? 18:22:48 do you know what a meta-compiler is and why forth people have been using them? 18:23:16 yes. 18:23:24 so, what's the problem? 18:24:05 "Hello World"? 18:24:33 dude the whole "hello world" concept is grounded in some non-tunes assumptions 18:24:52 eventually it has to be done. 18:25:27 there is a whole environment that is required to do such things. Slate does not address that yet. 18:25:33 yeah well i could always wrap c++'s >> in a slate object and a collection of strings in another object and pass a string from one to the other 18:25:40 P 18:25:43 >:P 18:25:58 but that's not the point, is it? 18:26:08 IS IT? 18:26:19 not the entire point. 18:26:28 but definitly an objective 18:26:30 no, not even part of the point at ALL 18:27:20 there're a lot of more important things to work out before i glue it to "practical" apps 18:27:38 the whole point is to do something. You can't do something without considering the environment you act on. 18:27:45 why the hell should i make a practical language that SIMPLY ISN'T THE HLL?!? 18:27:52 Maybe so, but I am not sure what those things are 18:28:38 then go read the tunes site or go somewhere else 18:29:23 because you obviously don't add anything 18:29:38 if you don't understand what the goal is 18:29:48 Which brings me to my original point. You are inventing, generating that "spark", you are alone on that. 18:30:01 so what?!? 18:30:08 I know your goals, I don;t have a clue how to get from Slate to them 18:30:23 I don't see any reasonable path. 18:30:26 But you do 18:30:31 That is GREAT 18:30:39 why the hell should i care? 18:31:01 You do not have to care. 18:31:24 why are you bringing this up, then? 18:31:38 I just wanted you to know that I am unclear on what you are doing. Docs may help, even if they are off on a tangent 18:32:32 i don't have enough time to document the reasons for my decisions; it takes enough of my scarce time to even learn enough to make decent decisions 18:33:05 Sometimes it is best to do the invention yourself for those reasons. 18:33:11 and i hate coming here after many hours of demoralizing work to a bunch of useless lurkers!!! 18:33:32 But I find it difficult to help, without the docs. 18:33:39 [MODE] ChanServ set mode: +o water 18:33:49 Oh Oh 18:33:53 no not you 18:34:15 [KICK] Brianna was kicked by water (water) 21:18:57 [QUIT] uto|Code quit: changing servers 21:43:59 Brianna joined #tunes 21:45:22 Brianna joined #tunes 21:47:27 Brianna joined #tunes 21:55:47 Brianna joined #tunes 22:00:16 [QUIT] trans quit: Real programmers code it into the client 22:19:42 water joined #tunes 22:19:42 abi joined #tunes 22:19:42 clog joined #tunes 22:19:42 Kyle joined #tunes 22:19:42 smkl joined #tunes 22:19:42 [MODE] lackey.openprojects.net set mode: +o water 23:02:11 draugath joined #tunes 23:02:20 draugath left #tunes 23:08:14 florin joined #tunes 23:08:19 hello 23:10:42 i've been following tunes.org for a few years on and off....what is the actual status ? has any code at all been written ? 23:13:04 hey 23:13:22 we're still developing the semantic and syntactic specs for the hll 23:13:22 i'm still here, hello 23:13:36 my personal stab for it is slate 23:13:59 which is not publically documented very well yet 23:15:09 although if you combine slate public docs with hll spec docs on the site, you'll get the right idea, although people seem to avoid doing anything like that. it seems imagining how the hll will work is painful for most people :) 23:15:35 if you want to know about slate, you can ask me 23:15:54 so, how do you like the hll in the whole system ? i guess i don't understand how the whole thing comes together... 23:16:16 very few people have the background to understand that 23:18:41 even Fare i know has problems with that 23:18:41 i have a fairly good idea about a classical computing system but (sorry) what i read sounds like a nice fantasy (which is why i'm excited) 23:18:41 my explanation would depend on your background particulars 23:18:41 bah, you can program in really interesting languages today 23:18:41 like maude or a good lisp, or self 23:18:41 all tunes is is an particular way of building a system out of language-oriented semantics 23:18:47 i have no formal training in language theory, i know some things about compilers...i agree, but that's dodging the question, no ? 23:18:49 instead of always "compiling new libraries of functions" 23:20:30 no, it's not dodging the question 23:20:30 lisp has a syntactic extension system based on macros which also can manage to do part of the work of the compiler, for instance 23:20:30 see, that's what i don't understand. a language is a language is a language no matter how nice and how abstract the semantics really are.... 23:20:30 so in that sense, lisp is capable of part of what tunes should be as it is 23:20:39 yes, but you can use reflection to break down the semantics 23:20:49 by getting under the parts that make it up 23:20:59 in logic, this is called substructural analysis 23:21:14 which is a relatively new field, actually 23:21:17 i don't understand how that works...don't worry, don't try to teach me, i'll take care of that. 23:21:29 good, that would annoy me 23:21:54 is there any particular system you want url's for? 23:21:58 or topic? 23:22:05 abi is a good info-bot 23:22:17 abi maude 23:22:18 maude is a reflective rewriting logic language at http://maude.csl.sri.com/ or http://www.csl.sri.com/~duran/ 23:22:58 abi odool 23:22:59 odool is "Open Design of Object-Oriented Languages: A Foundation for Specialisable Reflective Language Frameworks" by Patrick Steyaert at ftp://progftp.vub.ac.be/dissertation/1994/vub-prog-phd-94-01/ 23:23:10 i've read most of tunes.org over time, where shall i start if i want to get more into this ? i know lisp and haskell and some other languages but i'm at the 'know' level rather than 'i can do that' level. 23:23:38 i'm not sure 23:23:55 i, for example, study the workings of squeak and common lisp and scheme 23:24:08 for their shortcomings and features 23:24:10 (don't worry. thanks for the overview.) 23:24:31 but then, i have a specific goal: to develop slate to a point beyond them 23:24:54 hopefully, i can get the tunes ball rolling so i can ignore it and work on arrow instead 23:26:02 i have no idea what slate is. 23:26:03 abi slate 23:26:03 slate is a unifying/hybridizing of self/beta/lisp at http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate/ 23:26:10 ouch, wrong url 23:26:47 abi: no, slate is a unifying/hybridizing of self/beta/lisp/forth at http://slate.tunes.org/ 23:26:48 okay, water. 23:27:12 which reminds me, i have more doc page updates for it, minor ones for now 23:27:18 do you think graphical tools have a place in this ? i mean a good visualization / abstration tool what would let you understand rough structure quickly 23:27:35 for tunes in general? absolutely 23:27:50 specifically, i'm not sure what you would mean 23:28:34 i've been thinking about something that creates graphs from source code and then hooks in the binary and lets you walk the graph as the code executes. 23:29:05 oh 23:29:09 it would be easy to do in c, but i question its usefulness....i'm looking for something richer but i have no clue yet. 23:29:22 well, data-flow graphs are common intermediate forms for compilers 23:29:34 there are a lot of tools for that 23:29:40 a 2 way tool, something that can abstract things on the fly. (i know that's vague). 23:29:47 actually, there are VPLs if you like 23:29:56 abi vpl 23:29:56 vpl is Visual Programming Language or http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Visual_Languages/ 23:30:22 i happen to use prograph from time to time 23:32:47 sec. 23:35:29 i'm obviously naive. i had no idea prograph existed. my background is graphics, the short term goal i had in mind is something that lets you understand large c++ codes fast, based on the actual code rather than a dataflow graph. 23:36:50 well i know there are a few tools for that 23:37:06 mostly they are the results of small academic projects 23:38:07 i can imagine...have you ppl thought of a genetic optimizer for tunes that eats spare cycles to make code faster ? 23:38:24 sure 23:38:34 something that takes basic blocks and tries combinations, no change to cfgs, real simple... 23:38:43 but that is totally independent of having the right framework to begin with 23:39:05 that's true. 23:42:43 thanks for all the info. i'll come back when i know more. 23:42:44 and, yes, it does fall under part of the choice mechanism mentioned in the tunes docs 23:42:48 ok 23:43:14 florin left #tunes 00:26:15 clog joined #tunes