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00:26:43 <kev> morning
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01:03:05 <_101> hi
01:04:11 <_101> any idea when the slate.tunes.org page will be updated? i fear it's going to be right before my exams start... big things always happen then, or it it just me tries to think that... :)
01:36:43 <kev> are you on the mailing list?
01:37:13 <_101> yes
01:37:26 <_101> i'm just starving for something to play with
01:37:45 <_101> reading the docs only gives me some impression about what means what
01:38:07 <_101> i must do that to understand (lack of english knowledge and background)
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15:05:57 <eihrul> welcome
15:07:00 <scatterheart> thanks you
15:07:50 <scatterheart> what's going on
15:09:57 <eihrul> some intermittent slate stuff
15:15:12 <scatterheart> would you happen to use icq?
15:15:25 <eihrul> maybe, i don't give out my number, though
15:16:09 <scatterheart> I'm having problems connecting. Are you?
15:16:17 <eihrul> nope
15:16:28 <eihrul> this is not the ICQ support channel, though
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15:21:14 <scatterheart> thank you
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15:30:32 <eihrul> hey t
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15:45:00 <tcn> hey
15:45:21 <tcn> how long have you been here? hehe
15:46:41 <tcn> I was reading about ITS again
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17:21:20 <water> hello everyone :)
17:21:45 water is in a much better mood now that he was allowed to accomplish real work at his job and did it well
17:22:30 <water> hcf: thanks mucho for the scheme delegation-oop code and paper
17:22:44 <hcf> np
17:23:26 <water> eih: how busy are you right now?
17:24:01 <water> (wondering for the purposes of conversation aspect of development, not development per se)
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17:25:06 <Fare> water: useful work in the navy?
17:25:19 <water> Fare: shhh, don't ruin my mood ;)
17:25:23 <Fare> water: paper from the Scheme repository?
17:25:36 <water> Fare: i believe so
17:26:48 <water> hcf: where did you get that? i forget
17:27:11 <hcf> 1sec
17:28:29 <hcf> http://www.lh.com/~oleg/ftp/Scheme/index.html#pure-oo
17:30:03 <water> ok
17:30:12 <water> oh yeah
17:30:40 <water> btw, alan kay is going to speak at the ACM1 conference in march
17:31:12 <water> most likely he will show off squeak (2.9 or 2.10 by then)
17:31:36 <water> like nebraska and the end-user programming examples
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17:33:52 <water> hm it seems like the mpeg player morph has reached the level of development that mirrors a 1.0 release of a good mainstream player
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17:41:57 <water> Fare: are you busy or not around?
17:42:41 <Fare> yes?
17:42:47 Fare is sleepy
17:42:52 <water> n/m if you're tired
17:43:08 [NICK] trans-din changed nick to: trans
17:43:12 <water> i'll write a lot... just respond to it when you get the chance
17:43:14 <Fare> nebraska is a bit far away for me. I don't think I'll be there
17:43:35 <water> heh no nebraska is software
17:46:49 <water> acm1 is going to be in san jose, and i doubt a tuneser would gain much from it other than getting acquainted with the speakers, which is not that significant
17:48:48 <water> in fact, most likely alan kay will blow away everyone else
17:49:21 <water> looking at the list of speakers, he's the only one not "part of the digital elite"
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18:07:06 <hcf> abi: pfoos is Purely-Functional Object-Oriented System, aka oop-in-fp, code for a classless delegation-based oo system in scheme, at http://www.lh.com/~oleg/ftp/Scheme/index.html#pure-oo
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19:00:33 <timmy> got some questions or comments from the 'what is tunes' part
19:01:16 <timmy> first, it says free software (aka Open Source)
19:01:27 <timmy> but i don't think they are the same thing
19:01:51 <water> why not?
19:02:02 <timmy> open source has some restrictions
19:02:07 <water> heh
19:02:13 <water> that depends on your POV
19:02:34 <water> the restrictions liberate the software from the intentions of the few
19:02:47 <water> to make sure it stays free for the many
19:03:14 <water> it's not necessarily better, but Tunes *has* to be open source in order to work properly at all
19:03:16 <timmy> i think that is the advantage of the GPL versus public domain
19:03:48 <timmy> i think it would be better to say Free (as in RMS's definition <link>)
19:04:12 <timmy> because that is free and open
19:04:27 <water> well, we refer to the license
19:04:38 <water> have you looked at the FAQ?
19:04:41 <hcf> too bad fare is missing the licensing discussion
19:04:52 <timmy> just the What Is part
19:06:04 <lar1> heh
19:06:05 <timmy> i also think that internationalisation and other language support should be important (listed in that paragraph)
19:06:15 <water> heh
19:06:36 <water> do you mean unicode or something else? ;)
19:06:57 <timmy> yeah other stuff too
19:07:40 <water> tunes is supposed to address it, but the basics have to be worked out first
19:07:44 <timmy> like a well made input system
19:09:05 <timmy> well, if it is supposed to address it, put it in that 'what is' paragraph :)
19:09:33 <timmy> actually 4.1
19:11:01 <water> hm good idea
19:12:28 [NICK] water changed nick to: hm
19:12:35 <timmy> i better get back to writing this stupid US history paper..
19:12:38 [NICK] hm changed nick to: water
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19:31:28 <timmy> are you people working with the vapour people?
19:31:48 <water> actually, no
19:32:19 <water> you know, when i first saw their site, i thought they were spoofing us :)
19:32:35 <water> but anyway, their goals are more in line with a lispOS
19:32:35 <eihrul> well, the name might have been tunes inspired
19:32:42 <water> heh
19:32:51 <water> actually, they hadn't heard of tunes
19:32:55 <eihrul> (i.e. all this systems with fancy names are all just vapour, so lets call ourselves vapour and maybe we'll do the opposite!)
19:32:57 <water> until more recently
19:33:04 <eihrul> water: eh, vapour => zhivago's baby
19:33:56 <eihrul> he definitely knows about tunes, and for quite some time
19:34:07 <water> oh he did?
19:34:08 <eihrul> s/all this/all these
19:34:26 <water> even before vapour was started?
19:34:32 <eihrul> vapour is pretty old
19:34:36 <eihrul> they've been working on it for years
19:34:37 <timmy> because if you ever want an implementation, you need to work together
19:34:41 <eihrul> however, the name may not date back that long
19:34:47 <eihrul> not sure
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20:59:32 <lispbliss> water, you still here?
21:09:28 <water> yeah
21:12:18 <lispbliss> do you use squeak much?
21:12:28 <water> yes i do
21:12:54 <lispbliss> what do you do with it?
21:13:04 <water> mostly i study it
21:13:06 <lispbliss> it doesn't seem fast enough to make many applications that actually do real stuff..
21:13:11 <water> lol
21:13:18 <lispbliss> or am I wrong?
21:13:46 <water> okay, explain where the boundary between "real stuff" and "toy stuff" is
21:14:18 <lispbliss> well, a large application I guess.  I mean, even just with the basic apps it comes with its pretty slow.  that's what I mean.
21:14:39 <water> how fast is your computer?
21:14:53 <lispbliss> dual 550s
21:15:06 <water> and what version of squeak did you try?
21:15:29 <lispbliss> hmm, its been a few months now..whatever the latest version was 2-3 months ago
21:15:59 <water> and does it mean anything to you when i tell you that most of squeak's ~15 MB of code is experimental?
21:16:05 <lispbliss> btw, have you ever used the email, web, or irc programs for it?
21:16:30 <water> yes, that's not what is being worked on in squeak
21:16:44 <water> squeak is not being developed as an emacs-killer
21:16:55 <lispbliss> water, I don't expect it to be
21:17:11 <lispbliss> I'm interested in what it is being worked on for.  that's why I came here to talk to you about it :)
21:17:18 <water> well do you know what's being developed most actively in it?
21:17:25 <water> ok, "no"
21:17:27 <lispbliss> nah, I don't.
21:17:35 <water> morphic, for one
21:17:43 <water> that's a really huge thing right there
21:18:13 <lispbliss> morphic is the way to make guis in it right?
21:18:16 <lispbliss> although I feel I'm underestimating morphic..
21:18:18 <water> there's also image segments, modules, namespaces, projects, nebraska, swikis, shared morphs, ...
21:18:29 <water> yes you are
21:18:48 <water> morphic is a really big architecture
21:19:09 <water> it's also been one of the biggest sources of slowdown in squeak
21:19:20 <water> which is recently the hotspot of attention
21:19:44 <water> basically, expect about twice the performance and responsiveness out of 2.9 over 2.8
21:20:07 <water> 2.8 is the current public release, which itself is in transition
21:20:27 <water> do you know what kansas is from self?
21:20:52 <water> hello?
21:21:47 <lispbliss> sorry, got disconnected..
21:21:53 <water> oh
21:22:02 <lispbliss> so is 2.9 on cvs type stuff or is it hush hush private?
21:22:07 <water> abi #tunes logs
21:22:13 <lispbliss> kansas is a state..
21:22:17 <lispbliss> (just joking :))
21:22:23 <lispbliss> no problem, I saw what you said
21:22:44 <water> kansas is a way to share desktops in the kind of environment that squeak is
21:22:46 <lispbliss> I remember reading that smalltalk got something similiar from self., but I don't remember what it was..
21:22:53 <water> across the internet
21:22:56 <lispbliss> sweet
21:23:04 <lispbliss> does it exist or is it vapor?
21:23:11 <water> that includes code development in all aspects
21:23:35 <water> it exists in self 4.0 through 4.1.2, which i use on this iBook
21:23:36 <lispbliss> scratch that last question.
21:23:47 <lispbliss> so does smalltalk have similiar features?
21:23:50 <water> nebraska is the squeak continuation of kansas
21:24:00 <lispbliss> and is it vapor?
21:24:11 <lispbliss> or alpha, or what stage?
21:24:11 <water> no, it's in 2.9alpha
21:24:19 <water> the 2.9 image is alpha
21:24:26 <lispbliss> ahh, and can normal people like me get it?
21:24:37 <water> yeah, but you'll probably run into bugs
21:24:51 <lispbliss> any idea of a release for 2.9?
21:24:52 <water> and most people don't know how to use a squeak debugger
21:25:07 <water> (it's really really powerful)
21:25:10 <water> hm
21:25:15 <water> perhaps another month
21:25:15 <lispbliss> btw, is self even used much anymore? I've never really heard of anyone using it..
21:25:36 <water> it's never been used much, but now that it works on the mac, more people can use it
21:25:57 <lispbliss> that's cool.. does it compile to native code?
21:26:02 <water> not on the mac
21:26:09 <water> it does for sparc/solaris, though
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21:26:20 <water> re adu
21:26:24 <adu> re
21:26:33 <adu> what happened to abi?
21:26:39 <adu> abi help
21:26:41 <water> dunno
21:26:50 <adu> o its still here :)
21:27:17 <water> lb: what else do you want to know?
21:27:25 <adu> apple is at http://www.apple.com
21:27:33 <adu> where can i find apple?
21:27:36 <lispbliss> what all the swiki talk is about..I remember lots of people mentioning it ..
21:27:49 <water> do you know what wiki is?
21:27:53 <lispbliss> like I tried one once but wasn't sure what was special about it..some web thing
21:27:55 <lispbliss> no, I don't.
21:28:08 <water> www.wiki.org i believe
21:28:22 <adu> do you have to call abi's name everytime you want it to record something?
21:28:39 <water> yes, but please don't
21:29:01 <adu> k
21:29:21 <adu> hot passionate love is at http://myhouse.com
21:29:21 <water> wiki is a way to build web pages collaboratively on the net
21:30:07 <water> swiki is a similar concept that is migrating toward publishing any kind of squeak content on the web
21:30:23 <water> abi squeak swiki
21:30:41 <water> hm
21:31:08 <water> well anyway, swiki's are also collaborative
21:31:30 <water> the squeak site has a swiki dedicated to documenting squeak, for example
21:31:38 <water> and there's also www.swiki.net
21:31:43 <lispbliss> and anyone can add stuff to it?
21:32:18 <water> yep, although there is backtrqacking
21:32:22 <water> -q
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21:32:49 <water> there are some implementation improvements that squeak is working on as well
21:33:13 <water> to allow for the right kind of customizable protection mechanisms for swiki nodes
21:33:50 <lispbliss> hmm, so there is morphic, nebraska, and swiki.
21:34:45 <water> there is also the squeak IDE
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21:35:23 <water> explorers, inspectors, halos, class/instance/method/method category/package/hierarchy/protocol browsers
21:35:44 <lispbliss> yeah, I remember fooling around with that a bit.
21:35:45 <water> also the process browser, debugger,
21:35:58 <water> well, it's getting improved
21:36:29 <water> the conspicuous lack of a morphic-oriented gui builder has not gone without notice, for example
21:37:05 <water> there's also the push to modularize the image
21:37:21 <water> so that embedded systems only need to load what is absolutely needed
21:37:34 <water> which would make scripting servers possible
21:38:13 <water> this is happening already in the current image, although it's not exploited by default in the UI
21:38:23 <water> (re hcf)
21:38:28 <lispbliss> ahh
21:38:50 <water> there's also alternative syntaxes for squeak code
21:38:55 <lispbliss> do you know of any docs on how to use nebraska in the alpha image?
21:39:00 <water> heh
21:39:01 <lispbliss> is there a lisp syntax?
21:39:06 <hcf> (rere water)
21:39:14 <water> no a lisp syntac for smalltalk would not work
21:39:28 <water> not properly, anyway
21:39:31 <lispbliss> oh :()
21:39:44 <water> and the docs for everything in squeak are in the image and changesets
21:39:57 <water> lisp: it's a logical difference between the languages
21:40:14 <water> lisp: it could be done, but it would be a restricted kind of syntax
21:40:26 <lispbliss> ok, np
21:40:33 <water> not that you can't do lisp in smalltalk, it's just done differently
21:40:59 <hcf> abi: #tunes
21:40:59 <abi> #tunes is [irc] channel for TUNES, logs at http://www.tunes.org/~nef/logs/ and http://www.tunes.org/files/irc/
21:41:13 <water> ah ok
21:41:39 <water> for example, there's a java/c++ like syntax
21:42:11 <water> let's see, what else
21:42:24 <water> oh yeah, compilable primitives
21:42:51 <water> of course squeak relies on a c compiler as a back-end, but that's what you get for portability's sake
21:43:14 <lispbliss> I'm downloading 2.9a and the VM..and checking out the squeak swiki..
21:43:22 <water> ok
21:43:33 <lispbliss> but its pretty late and I don't think I'll get to use it tonight..
21:43:59 <water> ok
21:44:15 <water> be careful with it, even the vm is experimental
21:44:34 <water> btw, the JIT framework is also getting released with 2.9
21:44:43 <water> so there's another speedup
21:44:47 <lispbliss> java just in time?
21:44:56 <water> lol
21:45:04 <water> no, squeak JIT
21:45:20 <lispbliss> I thought the VM worked for all 2.x releases?
21:45:34 <water> which vm?
21:45:35 <lispbliss> the only context I've heard JIT talked about in was regarding java :)
21:45:44 <lispbliss> SqueakVM..
21:45:52 <water> the squeak vm is changing quite a bit
21:45:54 <lispbliss> like all I need for 2.9 was a new image, not a new vm
21:45:59 <water> nope
21:46:11 <water> the new squeak vm has a lot of new primitives compiled in
21:46:19 <lispbliss> ok, I'll look for the new vm
21:46:23 <water> much different from 2.7
21:46:32 <water> which is probably what you played with before
21:48:52 <water> abi seity
21:48:52 <abi> seity is [sw+self] at http://www.parc.xerox.com/istl/members/bchang/seity/
21:49:03 <water> hum
21:50:58 <water> abi pcp
21:50:58 <abi> pcp is Principia Cybernetica, a web-based public theory of cybernetics and systems theory or http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/
21:51:09 <lispbliss> http://software.freepage.de/cronos/squeak/squeak_macOS9.gif that is cool..
21:51:17 <water> oh good, it's back up
21:51:56 <adu> hello
21:52:09 <water> yeah skins are nice
21:52:16 <adu> water you know much about sqeak?
21:52:21 <water> adu: yes
21:52:34 <lispbliss> water, do the skins slow it down?
21:52:37 <water> the gradient system is available without any additions, too
21:52:45 <water> lisp: not really
21:52:45 <adu> this isn't really about aqueak, but does JIT require knowlege of the destination CPU?
21:53:01 <water> adu: of course, which is why the squeak JIT was delayed
21:53:21 <lispbliss> it doesn't seem like it is just the titlebars that's different in this picture..I think the whole color scheme is different..
21:53:27 <adu> because if you write it in C, you can write it in such a way as not to be pinned to any proccessor..... can't you?
21:53:37 <water> lb: colorscheme is nothing to change
21:54:12 <adu> water do you know how to change the windows in squeak?
21:54:19 <adu> i always thought they were ugle
21:54:28 <adu> s/ugle/ugly/
21:54:30 <water> adu: well the engine itself can be portable, but compiling to native code means compiling to *native* *code*
21:54:42 <adu> ya
21:54:46 <water> look on the squeak swiki
21:54:52 <adu> k
21:54:57 <adu> thanx
21:54:58 <water> i don't care for cosmetic stuff
21:55:10 <adu> i'm interested in formalizing a VM spec
21:55:20 <water> so?
21:55:21 <lispbliss> Note that you will still need to use the VM and .sources file from the official release download. (The alpha download does not include these.))
21:55:43 <adu> i want it to be kinda like daisy
21:56:06 <water> what the hell is daisy? or rather, why should i care what it is?
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21:57:24 <adu> daisy is an IBM project that hasto do with binary conversion
21:57:37 [NICK] hcf_ changed nick to: hcf
21:58:24 <water> oh like dynamo
21:58:32 <water> (by HP)
21:58:46 <adu> whats that?
21:58:51 <water> abi dynamo
21:58:51 <abi> dynamo is at http://www.hpl.hp.com/cambridge/projects/Dynamo/ or at http://www.cs.indiana.edu/proglang/dynamo/
21:58:57 <hcf> abi: squeak wiki is at http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak.1
22:00:08 <hcf> abi: swiki?
22:00:08 <abi> swiki is Wiki in Squeak, a CoWeb: web-based collaborative space, based on WikiWiki at http://www.cc.gatech.edu/projects/squeakers/14.html
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22:01:01 <hcf> adu: dont try to add stupid things like '<adu> hot passionate love is at http://myhouse.com' to abi
22:01:03 [QUIT] trans quit: What's a script?
22:04:27 <adu> that sounds cool
22:04:47 <adu> hcf: i knew it woulnd't add it... i was joking
22:04:53 <hcf> ok
22:05:25 water joined #tunes
22:05:33 <water> re
22:05:46 <adu> hello again
22:05:53 <adu> dynamo sounds pretty cool
22:06:10 <adu> but it sounds like more for vitual instruction sets...
22:06:22 [QUIT] mitanium quit: Ping timeout for mitanium[203.130.192.152]
22:06:23 <adu> like Java, amigaDE, Python
22:06:24 <water> it doesn't matter
22:06:33 <adu> i want to learn more about them actually....
22:06:43 <water> okay, good for you
22:06:55 <adu> i want an environment with built-in support for foriegn applications.
22:07:27 <adu> i don't care if i'm talking to a wall... if you don't care then why do you take the time to type the letters....
22:07:27 <water> um... why are you telling me this?
22:08:28 <water> i would do something about it but chanserv is not around to enforce anything
22:11:48 [QUIT] hcf quit: Leaving
22:13:28 <adu> chanserv?
22:13:34 <adu> why would they?
22:15:35 <water> they implement ops
22:16:40 <water> bbiab
22:17:59 [QUIT] lar1 quit: foobarbaz
22:27:40 <adu> bye
22:27:56 [QUIT] adu quit: Read error to adu[1Cust243.tnt1.vacaville.ca.da.uu.net]: Connection reset by peer
23:38:14 eihrul yawns.
23:39:59 <water> hey
23:40:12 <water> odd time for you to be up
00:01:37 <kev> good morning