IRC log started Sat Jan 2 00:00:02 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0102 שםש tcn [tcn@cci-209150250088.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes nite *!*@* שםש SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) tril, you there? y How are your specs coming? >>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250088.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 915264360 from #tunes 12:10am i had na interesting idea today exploring the system is the same thing as constructing new parts of the system. Much like quantum uncertainty, ne? hmm.. yeah Tunes, the quantum OS? heh How about the way objects (or whatever) talk to each other.. any specs on that? that's the same too. well... still too vague to code it, I guess 12:20am yeah, objects talk to eahc other by constructing new parts of the system (passing an argument is like taking a function call and constructing it with the argument) function+arg = new function (partial evaluation) when all args run out the function returns its value, and the function is either cached for later running or discarded or kept in the history for examining ok And this is for tiny objects (like "+") and large, long-running ones (like programs)...? yes.... "type", "objects", "functions", "evaluation" are all universal ... everything is basically the same. all big things, small things, all different kinds of things. great.. I guess we've got a good simple abstraction, for programs, networks, everything. I'm trying to write a prototype.. I just want to play with a crude Distributed Persistent System.. so I can see what works and what doesn't, in practice. Hmm.. If I write a "persistent storage manager" to manage objects on disk & ram, and adapt my Forth interpreter to it, that's all I really need. 12:30am It almost runs under Linux now, too. >>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250088.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 915265803 from #tunes are you going to make Forth modular? umm.. I'm planning to use Forth to interact with my prototype, because it's convenient.. The Forth routines will be object methods now.. or something hehe what do ya say, go for it? doesn't plan9 already have persistence? accesible as unix files? I don't have plan9. Besides, too complicated. With this little prototype, I'll fully understand it. i'm just thinking what you can reuse linux VFS 12:40am Running on top of Linux lets me use all that stuff ;) But it's a pain to interface through libc and the kernel, when I could do it direct if Linux wasn't in my way Anyway, I'm writing stuff that'll be useful later what is "direct"? reprogramming IDE , SCSI drivers?? Port I/O, DMA.. see, tunes should allow for programs to access that stuff.. "kernel temporarily step aside for a minute.." We've got to be able to import drivers from Linux, GGI, etc, unless we want to rewrite them all in the new HLL/LLL my idea of importing, is system-assisted conversion. Actually I'm working on OS's because I'm designing new computers.. there won't be much hardware to support. C is quite low-level, drivers should be rewritten to be high level wait.. ok, I realize what that sounds like UNIOS gave me an idea.. For every type of low-level driver, have a high-level abstraction.. what i mean is data structures and optimizations are "aspects" (have you seen AOP?) that should be factored out..this makes code easier to undersand, more portable, etc well,m yeah... Like what I'm doing with my prototype.. I have an abstract "Terminal", which talks to stdin/stdout under Linux, and to the screen and keyboard when I boot it by itself in my system, low elvel drivers are just specifications for how hardware behaves. That leads to code which is generated and inlined into any function that needs the hardware. (generated, and inlined, can correspond to "run previously generated" and "called") 12:50am I am going to log off now ... have a nice day! שםש SignOff Tril: #TUNES (שםש Total uptime : 1d 9h 45m 57s) שםש SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving) 01:00am שםש Beholder [beholder@ppp-106.m2-2.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes שםש SignOff Beholder: #TUNES (Read error to Beholder[ppp-106.m2-2.sub.ican.net]: Connection reset by peer) -^lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all. In the process of rerouting European servers, please bear with us! שםש smkl [sami@ppp55.dial-in.verkkotieto.com] has joined #tunes !gibson.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT hogan.openprojects.net 8004 from ^lilo !gibson.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT zsoldos.openprojects.net 8004 from ^lilo !fontana.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT zsoldos.openprojects.net 8004 from ^lilo שםש Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES abi, smkl is a lurker smkl? i guess smkl is a lurker hi! :) !hogan.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT zsoldos.openprojects.net 8004 from ^lilo -lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Apologies for the extended work on the European servers. We're nearly finished. 09:10am שםש SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason) שםש NetSplit: gerrold.openprojects.net split from forward.openprojects.net [10:17am] שםש BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [gerrold.openprojects.net] !hogan.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT zsoldos.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo שםש Netjoined: gerrold.openprojects.net forward.openprojects.net שםש smkl [sami@ppp55.dial-in.verkkotieto.com] has joined #tunes !asimov.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT zheng.openprojects.net 8004 from lilo שםש Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.ml.org] by crichton.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.ml.org]) שםש Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success שםש Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] שםש BitchX: For more information about BitchX type /about שםש Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES שםש Your host is crichton.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.03.lagtime.desynch3.indent8.dead.whox2.zombie שםש This server was cobbled together Sat May 9 1998 at 12 25:56 EDT שםש crichton.openprojects.net u2.10.03.lagtime.desynch3.indent8.dead.whox2.zombie dioswkfcg biklmnopstv שםש [local users on irc(10)] 6% שםש [global users on irc(59)] 35% שםש [invisible users on irc(111)] 65% שםש [ircops on irc(10)] 6% שםש [total users on irc(170)] שםש [unknown connections(0)] שםש [total servers on irc(25)] (avg. 6 users per server) שםש [total channels created(53)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !crichton.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 15 (14 clients) שםש Mode change [+iw] for user TUNES שםש TUNES [tunes@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes שםש Topic for #TUNES: botplay 103 שםש topic set by hcf [Fri Jan 1 22:17:36 1999] שםש [Users(#TUNES:4)] [ TUNES ] [ smkl ] [ abi ] [ Fare ] שםש Channel #TUNES was created at Wed Dec 30 09:08:43 1998 שםש BitchX: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.431 secs!! שםש binEng [bineng@dialup83-2-51.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes שםש SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving) שםש _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes נ _QZ/#tunes is GONE ( Auto-Away after 30 mins ) שםש tcn [tcn@cci-209150250107.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes howdy Still playing w/ abi? 01:30pm שםש SignOff Fare: #TUNES (varley.openprojects.net dickson.openprojects.net) שםש Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes what's up Fare? 01:50pm aw, I guess everyone's still asleep. Hacker hours, right? abi, tell everyone I said hi hehe שםש SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving) שםש binEng [andman4@dialup92-4-13.swipnet.se] has joined #Tunes hi? 02:00pm hello bonjour, smkl ick 02:10pm שםש SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Back in some hours I quess) שםש binEng [bineng@dialup94-4-24.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes hello hi Anybody that understands something of the arrow language? not much. do you know category theory? 03:30pm not at all. never heard about it before... well, it is this kind of abstract stuff behind abstract stuff, and the arrow language should be even more abstract I don't understand what that guy is going on about, but I'm tinkering with arrows to see it it can yield something. I was wondering over the details of groups of arrows. judging from the impression you get by reading the posts, it's hopelessly burried in theory - not a single straw of something useable... well, that's true do you know lambda calculus? not that either well, lambda calculus is also abtract, and doesn't seem very useful at first sight. still you can make useful things with it oh. Like what? well, it is turing complete. it can be used as a programming language, and functional programming is actually lambda calculus + syntactic sugar שםש hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes hi hcf hi hoy smkl syntactic sugar? שםש hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: tunes etc שםש binEng has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: Let's talk lambda calculus נ hcf/#tunes *gags* binEng: it makes programs easier to write. you could for example see "for" construct in C as syntactic sugar, because it can be implemented with while or goto aha, nothing harder 03:40pm hcf, r u into the arrow theory? binEng: nope nobody is into it except BRice guessed so I dunno, it could be that he has too much time to spare, or he's actually got something to say. according to him, he doesn't have much time well, judging from the quantity of mails he writes :) שםש SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ...) שםש SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Me too) שםש hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: Let's idle 03:50pm שםש lar1 [Larman@1Cust75.tnt20.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes Hi all you idlers! נ hcf/#tunes de-cloaks hoy lar1 Where did all the ops go? lar1: this be linppl/opn, no need for ops But isn't there usually some ops? tril can gets ops via chanserv whenever thers a need s/gets/get/ Ahhh abi: what is lar1? it has been said that lar1 is in awe... 04:10pm is lar1 in awe? abi: is lar1 in awe? hmm, ges not ;) i could, in theory, make factoids work in reverse That would be cool נ hcf/#tunes adds it to his abi todos list But that could lead to probs... Lar1 is in awe. Therefore awe is in Lar1. no lar1 => in awe; in awe => lar1 Ohh I was thinking converse :) also, iz $key $val?, iz possible, i suppose i use iz so what i say doesnt get factoid'ized hehe good idea... abi: iz? i guess iz is is abi: is? abi: is? is is iz is is not iz but iz is is abi: What is iz? i heard iz was is lar1: to add to pre-existing factoids, use 'x is also y' Ok thers also the matter of backwhacking abi: forget is hcf: I forgot is abi: \is is not iz but is is abi: is? is is not iz but is is abi: what is intel? no idea, lar1 abi: x \is y is a = b abi: x is y? x is y is probably a = b understand the '\' use? Yah I think... a \is b is c = d\ is 10 04:20pm abi: What is 10? lar1: wish i knew abi: what is a? wish i knew, lar1 שםש hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: botplay Oops! oops what? abi: a \is b is c = d\ is 10 i already had it that way, lar1. forgot to put abi in front of a \is b is c = d\ is 10 abi: what is 10? i don't know, lar1 abi: what is a? lar1: wish i knew abi: what is a \ lar1: wish i knew What is abi running on? host? software? os? Os linux Have do ever used WINE? nope Does someone read all the room's logs? i tend to, tril does i think also, its a channel not a room rooms \are for muds and vr 04:30pm I think they should be called Useful Never the less expident minamal bandwith consumption idea conveying thingies. "channel" comes from being like cb Ohh Does TUNES have any code written? not really You guys are still planning? yep Hmmm... is there room for another person? sure, http://www2.tunes.org/poll.html Does it matter I am working on an os of mine? nope Cool urs iz 'raven', rite? Yah I started coding... and then said damnit I don't have enough planed!! 04:40pm שםש hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: join us Is anyone designing the "spiffy logo"? lar1: not sure What does that form mean by Software Skills? Like what I program in? What OS I use? look at http://www2.tunes.org/members.html ok Those are _all_ the members? i ges 04:50pm Well, much to my dismay, I have to get back to work... BBL שםש SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) נ Fare/#Tunes is back hoy Fare EOFF -- End Of Family Festivities You're happy as long as it happens, you're relieved when it's over! AND, I installed a LAN at home -- works, except that I failed at making a few cables, and am short of RJ45 connectors. (and also except that I haven't instaled lxdoom, yet) (much less inuxPPC) 05:00pm שםש hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: let's idle ok, but then let it be *Eric* Idle eric idle? one of the monty python... oic always look on the bright side of life... 05:40pm שםש Nater1464 [blah@ppp167.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #TUNES what was the name of that game that helps tutor with asm? hoy Nater1464 Nater1464: core war(s)? yep thanx www.koth.org שםש hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: www2.tunes.org שםש SignOff Nater1464: #TUNES (Leaving) נ Fare/#Tunes is away (sleep) 05:50pm שםש adib [adib@200.253.244.130] has joined #TUNES שםש adib [adib@200.253.244.130] has left #TUNES [] שםש SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[escher.sdi.agate.net]) שםש hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes שםש Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES abi, what is up? tril: bugger all, i dunno abi, up is http://slashdot.org/ abi: up is also underground piano okay, hcf. hcf: do you want to be subscribed to all tunes lists? you used to read them from the web. 06:50pm i used to read tunes@ from the web do the new lists exist yet? yes.. I just found out cross-posting is a bad idea I thought it would check the recipients of both lists since they were on the same server I just won't do it again But that doesn't explain why ALL my mail is getting duplicated, not just cross-posted ones 07:00pm Tril!!!! down with cross-posting! hey, I just said that it was an experiment. שםש NetSplit: asimov.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [07:14pm] שםש BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [asimov.openprojects.net] שםש Netjoined: asimov.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net שםש _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #TUNES שםש lar1 [Larman@1Cust75.tnt20.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes Yo! hey, lar1. I got your membe request, but didn't look at it yet 07:20pm Cool Are all the TUNES members on the member page? what's a tunes member? שםש metarazor [ken@ip95.knoxville.tn.pub-ip.psi.net] has joined #TUNES hello hey, Tril hello, metarazor Hello lar1: I'm not sure.. I think more people are interested in helping a little bit, but don't want to be listed as permanent members Hello Tril Metarazor, know about TUNES? What project is this about? 07:30pm no, care to send an URL? שםש Tril has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: http://www.tunes.org/ this is a project to design an integrated software system (OS, language, etc) from the beginning I think that you split too much -- the tunes-specs needn't be tunes-announce is good. review seems redundant with os-ideas or tunes Fare: have you heard of this idea Ultima said, where all lists are funneled into a TUNES-ALL? I don't like that link is no good unless tunes-all is a completely internal list, that doesn't accept posts from the outside metarazor: Try http://www2.tunes.org/, then i.e. just an administrative facility and hit reload if it won't work the first time Right. I think that's what it was.. שםש Tril has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: http://www2.tunes.org/ (www is down again?) Tril: Is there a master TUNES TO-DO list? lar1: No, but we'd like to make one. Fare has suggested it many times Tril: well, put bespin as www.tunes.org http://www2.tunes.org/ is working for me... Fare: Buy _QZ a plane ticket and he will go over to core's house with a shotgun we'll put sweety as www1.tunes.org Have you complained to the administrators? Tril: I doubt the french customs will let him come with a shotgun he can buy one when he arrives he can, but that's not so easy, in France and he needs a prefectoral certificate for that hmm, you need more right-wing wackos, then NRA France or be a registered licensed hunter we have more than enough right wings guys they express their violence and hatred in other ways (some get weapons, too, by registering as hunters or otherwise legal gun owners) lar1, any idea for TODO list send to beholder or tell someone in the channel Tril: so whats the current idea for mlists? hcf: cause as much controversy and upset as many people as possible ;) Fare: is it ok to make tunes-all if it is just a collection of posts from all the other lists? Tril: well, use -l, that'll piss ppl off you think so, too? if I had domain control, we could register mass-distribution.tunes.org 07:40pm Tril: Ok, well this is not all that important, but if that "imagine a spiffy logo here" part was filled with a logo... I could use the brain power to code and design rather than imaging a logo ;) Hey, Ive had this idea in my head, care to hear about it? metarazor: sure lar1: heh.. yup.. beholder has that in his plan I;ve been throwing around in my head a VR shell for programming and operating a computer. Fare: not being ruler of the universe means you might not get to prevent us from having a logo for much longer I think VR is the bridge between luser and user Metarazor: Have you ever seen the command and Conquer installer? no... נ Fare/#Tunes wished there would be stricter rules to define who can own weapons or vote - though I deny any central organ the monopolistic authority to decide Metarazor: Well is really cool... with talking and stuff, if you are using VR to mean Vurtal Reality. Tril: well, I could try use veto power -- but then, I won't I imagine a sony playstation type box dialing into a linux server. That would be cool Yes.. Do you not think it feasible for a work enviroment? why have a logo before running code? looks quite silly to me. Tai Chi type movements to call sub routines etct. Let's not be another freedows/allos project! Fare: Why not? lots of administratrivia, not a single clue! Fare: Morale, to keep potential members from leaving in disgust administratrivia? I like it! we don't need lots of members -- we need specs and code Fare: maybe we should merge with them metarazor: Sure, some people would like 3D user interface Tril: Merge with who?? I was joking, freedows Ok... BBL שםש SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) let them attract the scum of OS development, and let us get focus on the essentials... which are...? So TUNES is a linux like project? specs, code it's free like linux. but it's completely redesigned system, instead of a copy of well-known UNIX Linux started with specs, we don't :( I see... so do you have the concepts down yet? Fare: do you know the name of the free clone of Windows NT project? as to what a perfect OS would be? sure, lots metarazor: still working on it it's pretty complicated. that is, it's complicated trying to make it as simple as we want it. (mostly written down in french, tho ): ): ): hmm...does that make sense the Idea is to keep the programmer from dealing with the messy nuts and bolts of programming? 07:50pm yes, and therefore the system won't get big and complex ok, on the todo-side: write a perl script to query babelfish, so as to translate text from french to english... while keeping a sophisticated OS? (might be something else than perl) hehe Alta Vista has a babelfish metarazor: not for long texts automatic translation is about a decade away. metarazor: A "high level" system, indeed Fare: what is the size of blocks? something like 8k how can you keep your programmers empowered while you protect them from the inner workings? I can write a script using netcat, bc, head and tail metarazor: by allowing to slide the "focus window" of details... yeah, that's what I was going to say :) hmm... how do you mean? sort of like a difficulty level. Tril: that would be great. But you need to split at words, and filter off latex comments, etc, etc (or first use some latex2html or hevea proggie) you choose how much information you want to deal with hevea? heavier? a latex->html filter written in OCaml much better than latex2html, they say I think an ASCII only version would be easier first considering it's written in a real high-level language, and latex2html isn't, that wouldn't surprise me can you easily convert latex to ascii while conserving sentence structure, without resorting to a tool like hevea? that would surprise me... btw, where can I get linux 2.2.0-pre3? Fare: Doesn't latex output to dvi? Then convert dvi->ps->ascii hum. You may try, but I doubt it will give anything good... http://www.kernel.org/mirrors/ abi, linux? i think linux is very cool, but it can screw with my head after awhile... abi, linux kernel? wish i knew, tril abi, linux kernel is at http://www.kernel.org/mirrors Fare: ok, I give up. It would be easier to teach everyone in the world French Fare: Maybe you should ask the FreeHive project to translate it for you. 08:00pm the free software movement by creative people who don't necessarily programto encourage and coordinate contributions to the free software movement by creative people who don't necessarily tril: bugger all, i dunno i don't know, tril I hate to say that, but the french main telco's research center's internal ISP service is by far the worst I ever saw שםש FilmLes [Wonderful@HSE-TOR-ppp25857.sympatico.ca] has joined #TUNES well, what's this I failed to connect or was disconnected at least half a dozen of times since we began this conversation and i'm looking for some conversation FilmLes: Hi, this is the channel for the tunes project what's this all about FreeHive? hmmm... FreeHive is to encourage and coordinate contributions to what's that? please explain specify tunes project Filmles: see www2.tunes.org Fare: Freehive is to support free software by epople who don't program alright i will look into this imeediately they make web pages, Logos, do translations, etc :) although i never spell immediately the way i just did FilmLes: :) I never speel it that way, either epople -> people Fare, beholder asked freehive to look at our web page and evaluate it (they have not replied yet... holidays) so is this a type of OS, or something that runs on top of an os filmles, both, but you will be able to do more if it is by itself. gotta go. Bye! נ Fare/#Tunes is away (sleep) 08:10pm i'm on a mac can i run it in dos via emulation sounds like a great idea just quickly glanced at the faq We don't have a version yet for any OS, sorry :( It's still being designed. alright just went to th bespin page and reading up on farי's dreams are you there too and are you a star trek: tng fan?