IRC log started Mon May  3 00:00:02 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0503
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<neural> hey guys
12:50pm
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<maquina> kkk
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01:30pm
!ChanServ:*! ^lilo used GETPASS on channel #aclug
!lilo:*! Hi all.  Just a reminder.  If someone seems unusually stupid, irrational or scary, please check their TLD (top level domain) by doing a /whois on their nick.  Cultural and language differences can produce very odd impressions of people.
!lilo:*! Keep your eyes open for this stuff, and if you see someone speaking a language you understand that needs translation services, give them a hand.  Thanks!
-:- Mon [Mon@62.81.64.189] has joined #Tunes
<Mon> hola
<abi> hola, Mon
<Mon> que tal?
<abi> que tal is spansih for whats up
<Mon> horror no hablas espaņol
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02:20pm
!NickServ:*! ^lilo used GETPASS on james
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!sterling.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT lucas.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo
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<tcn> anyone alive?
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03:00pm
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* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 89 hrs 18 min 37 secs
<Tril> hi
<Nater1464> greeting
<Nater1464> remember me?
<Tril> yup
<Nater1464> groovy
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<Nater1464> maybe you'd be able to answer this for me....
<Tril> maybe
<Nater1464> do you know of any hardware manufacturers that put out the source to the drivers written in house for their hardware
<Nater1464> ?
<Tril> no. no one releases source for windows drivers, and no one writes in house linux drivers. The thing to check for is if a manufacturer releases specs.. that way someone can write a dirver for any OS. 
<Tril> if they do i dont know off hand who it is.
<Nater1464> I kinda figured nobody wrote linux drivers in house....though I've heard creative labs is doing something like that....since they're so protective of their hardware specs or something
<Tril> creative released a beta of a binary driver for sblive. No source, plus I heard it doesnt really work yet
<Nater1464> heh heh
<Nater1464> I'm gonna destroy MS someday
<Nater1464> I'll be back on LATE tonight....I gotta go eat now though
<Nater1464> thanks for the help
03:10pm
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<Nater1464> back
<Nater1464> not suppertime yet I guess
03:20pm
<Tril> 
<Nater1464> are you a part of the tunes project, tril?
<Tril> yeah
<Nater1464> cool
<Nater1464> how far along is it?
<Tril> i'm gonna start programming something after i do
<Tril>  hello
<Tril> frick
<Nater1464> after you do what?
<Tril> my math homework.
<Tril> for some reason that line got cut off.
<Nater1464> ah
<Nater1464> my math homework kinda sucks....getting better though
<Nater1464> logic gates....rock on!
<Tril> you get logic gates in math? wow.
<Nater1464> yeah...was that a good wow or a bad wow?
<Tril> ever play Rocky's Adventure?
<Nater1464> never heard of rocky's adventure
<Tril> a good wow.  rocky's adv is walking around and finding logic gates and connecting them together to solve puzzles.
<Tril> it's an apple II game. I wonder if I can find a copy to run on an emulator.
<Nater1464> hmmm....sounds interesting.....
<Nater1464> I never actually even got around to playing with core wars
<Tril> it's kind of how i imagine tunes to be.
<Nater1464> how far is tunes right now? got a gui?
<Tril> no, it's got nothing
<Tril> just ideas and a few docs
<Tril> i guess you haven't been reading our mailing list.
<Nater1464> hmmmm.....sounds like mine...only mine doesn't have any documentation yet
<Nater1464> nope...just what I read in here
<Nater1464> and I haven't been here since somebody gave me crap for being in this room and not being a part of the project
<Tril> if you are in the room that makes you part of the project. who the heck told you that?
<Nater1464> I dunno...I forgot the name
<Nater1464> they were pretty new I think
03:30pm
<Nater1464> I'd like to get to work on an operating system....but I suck
<Tril> <Beholder> Are you a member of the Tunes project?
<Tril> <Nater1464> nope
<Tril> <Beholder> Thats ok, because I'm not (yet) either :)
<Nater1464> checking the logs....heh heh
<Tril> beholder's not mean.. he didn't scare you off
<Nater1464> I don't think it was him
<Nater1464> maybe it was...I dunno
<Nater1464> brix or something like that maybe?
<Tril> _QZ is writing brix.. he always discourages people from tunes
<Nater1464> maybe it was him....
<Tril> don't listen to him. he's not in tunes, and he's trying to compete with it
<Tril> he won't let anyone help him with his project, so he has to try to stop them from helping other projects :)
<Nater1464> why won't he let anyone help him?
<Tril> uh, dunno, but I'm guessing because he wants to get all the credit :)
<Nater1464> gloryhound
<Nater1464> apparently he never wants to finish it....
<Nater1464> when I start, I'm gonna have one person doing drivers, one doing system commands, etc etc...and we'll cross check each other's code
<Nater1464> I figure that'll be the fastest way
<Tril> he was going to release an interactive version (there's a test on the site now) on May 1 but I don't see it anywhere
<Nater1464> sure it wasn't april 1?
<Nater1464> ;-P
<Tril> that too, but he missed that one as well
<Nater1464> I was referring to it being april fool's day
<Tril> i know but that was the brix release date
<Nater1464> truth tables are annoying...they're easy, but they take forever if you draw them out
03:40pm
<Nater1464> I hear the table being set...
<Nater1464> is there any kind of tentative schedule for tunes?
<Tril> ask gmol..i think he said that we all had to give up if nothing happened by June
<Tril> and turn ourselves into a "discussion group"
<Nater1464> heh heh
<Nater1464> better get cracking...I could help out...I guess...
<Nater1464> I could write some basic system files...copy, move, mkdir....
<Tril> what langs do you know?
<Nater1464> some C, some vb, some java
<Nater1464> I wanna learn asm though
<Nater1464> wanna learn it bad
<Tril> why'
<Nater1464> I'm hoping to do some coding this summer....so I can get to work on my os in a year or so
<Nater1464> speed, power, control
<Nater1464> I'll learn it easy enough...just have to get to a school where they'll teach it, or find a way to set aside enough time to learn on my own
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<Nater1464> will tunes be open source?
<Nater1464> ack! gotta go
<Nater1464> later
-:- SignOff Nater1464: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Tril> yes. bye
03:50pm
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<Tril> new nick?
04:20pm
<ruiner> yep
<ruiner> old one actually
<ruiner> what did I ask right before I left?
<Tril> <Nater1464> will tunes be open source?
<Tril> <Tril> yes. bye
<ruiner> ah
<ruiner> why are you going open source?
<Tril> what would you suggest
<Tril> instead 
<ruiner> sell it commercially, undercut MS's prices
<ruiner> thats what I plan on doing
<ruiner> of course, I won't be deliberately withholding patches and such to make more money
<Tril> hmm you need to read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
<ruiner> I'm pretty much familiar with it
<Tril> there is a difference between being able to modify and redistribute the source, and charging money.
<Tril> then why did you assume that open source can't be sold commercially?
<Tril> because the two things are completely separate.
<ruiner> because it usually isn't
<Tril> yes.. that's true 
<Tril> but saying stuff like that makes you look new
<ruiner> another thing...there's nothing to stop somebody from distributing the source code
<Tril> what are you referring to?
<ruiner> hmmm...I suppose you could put in an eula for it....
<ruiner> with most commercial products, there are serial numbers and such to prevent piracy
<ruiner> with the source code, you couldn't really do that
<Tril> i have no idea what you are talking about. Do you mean your software, when you release it? 
<ruiner> commercial open source software
<Tril> you don't understand the purpose of open source.
<ruiner> its to create a better product....
04:30pm
<ruiner> and to give control to alter/manipulate/customize to the user's purposes
<Tril> If you release something open source, that's because you want the source to be distributed. The word "piracy" doesn't apply. you WANT the source to get as many places as you can.
<ruiner> but piracy and commercial products do relate
<ruiner> before you can have open source programs that are commercial, you have to figure that bit out
<ruiner> otherwise, there's no reason for it to be a commercial venture
<Tril> If you make money from free software, you charge for physically distributing it (cost of media and shipping, plus profit to you for performing the act of distribution).  And you provide support.
<Tril> You don't sell licenses to use it.  That way, anyone can use it, with NO WARRANTY, without paying you anything.
<Tril> and can download it free.
<ruiner> but what is to prevent somebody else from distributing it, and supporting it, and ousting you out of money?
<Tril> Nothing.
<ruiner> bad word
<Tril> Red Hat and Caldera both distribute versions of Linux with other open source software. They make money off support and sometimes proprietary enhancements.
<ruiner> so conceivably, you let somebody download it for free...they then distribute and support it...making all the money
<Tril> But the funny thing is, both of the companies have hired people to work on the software, which is contributing to the community.  So they are actually cooperating instead of competing, in a sense.
<ruiner> so its concievable that you would make zilch off of it
<ruiner> not likely, but possible
<Tril> You don't make money from restricting the software in any way. You make money by selling your services. 
<ruiner> I guess that's where we differ in philosophy, I see the software as the product, you see the services as the product
<Tril> Software can't be a product, it isn't limited in quantity
<ruiner> software can too be a product
<Tril> The monetary value of a series of digital bits on a computer is exactly zero, because you can duplicate it infinitely.
<ruiner> all those games I see on the shelves...what are they if they aren't a product?
<ruiner> its not the bits, its the arrangement of bits
<Tril> whatever
<ruiner> colors can be duplicated, but I've yet to hear of an exact copy of the ceiling of the sistine chapel
<ruiner> its the arrangements of the colors, not the colors themselves
04:40pm
<Tril> When you buy a game you aren't buying ownership of anything. You are purchasing a license to use the software.
<ruiner> you seem sort of frustrated...
<ruiner> correct
<Tril> So why can't you copy the software off your friend, then send in money for a license to use it, saving the company the cost of making a disk and a box and shipping it to the store?
<ruiner> but what guarantee do you have they'll send in the money?
<ruiner> withhold support?
<Tril> it's a flawed business model for the reasons you just said
<Tril> software is inherently free
<Tril> trying to make it a commodity is like fighting the laws of physics
<ruiner> you lost me now....
<ruiner> granted its a flawed business model, but you're the one that proposed it
<Tril> I'm not just talking about commercial open source. I'm talking about commercial software in general.
<ruiner> I'm skeptical that you can make enough money off of support alone to drive the open source community to advance
<ruiner> I mean you can only get your kicks off of recognition for so long
<Tril> well, the software has to be good, too
<ruiner> and you have to have enough people using it for there to be that much demand
<ruiner> gonna go to a friend's house...catch you later
<ruiner> good debate
<Tril> k
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04:50pm
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* Tril/#TUNES  is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
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<Ken> Hello
<abi> hi, Ken
<Ken> What have you been discussing?
<Ken> Hello?
<Ken> Ah, well I guess I've interrupted something...
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06:10pm
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<AlonzoTG> om
06:20pm
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
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<ruiner> hmmmmmmm.......
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08:50pm
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<core> people hi
<core> pom pom podom
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<_QZ> hello core
<core> hey qz :)
<core> qz: we're may 3rd, where are the updates? :)
09:00pm
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-:- SignOff core: #TUNES (that was interesting)
<ruiner> anybody here?
<_QZ> yes
<ruiner> excellent
<ruiner> whats up qz?
-:- _QZ has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: TUNES OS : http://www.tunes.org
<_QZ> not much
<_QZ> just working on brix
<ruiner> brix? I hear that is gonna suck
<_QZ> uh
<ruiner> how are you working on it?
<_QZ> well i'm using my fingers to type code
<ruiner> oh, you're a developer?
<_QZ> i am the creator
<ruiner> ohhhhhhhh
<ruiner> what sets it apart from other os's?
<_QZ> the fact that its better
<_QZ> :)
<_QZ> it takes OO places it has never been before
09:30pm
<ruiner> how is it better?
<_QZ> well
<_QZ> that requires alot of explanation
<ruiner> I've got some time
<_QZ> it elliminates all problems found in other oses
<ruiner> such as?
<_QZ> easier to use than any other os, yet more powerful than any os
<ruiner> detail
<_QZ> think of all the problems u have with current oses
<_QZ> then i wont have to type anything :)
<ruiner> so you take care of......I don't really have any problems
<ruiner> actually....one problem I have......not enough software to run in linux
<ruiner> games
09:40pm
<_QZ> it will be easier to write software for brix since it has no apps
<_QZ> u write functions that are integrated into the os and usable by other functions
<ruiner> hmmmmmm......api.......yuk
09:50pm
<ruiner> how about layered api?
<_QZ> layered api?
<ruiner> well......bad term
<ruiner> layered drivers
<_QZ> layered drivers?
<ruiner> so a designer could choose to use your system device drivers.....or their own.....which would pass onto yours
<ruiner> like for a sound card
<ruiner> they could pass it directly to whatever software you have written for it.....or they could interface it on their own....but it would still  pass through part of your code
<_QZ> u have misunderstood me
<ruiner> like....in windowed mode......all sounds would be mixed.....but maximized it'd just be that one program
<_QZ> well i wasnt clear
<ruiner> I'm just tossing out ideas actually
<ruiner> see which ones float
<ruiner> you're talking dll's right?
<_QZ> not functions but methods
<_QZ> noooo
<_QZ> not dll's
<ruiner> hmmm?
<_QZ> u take a data object and write methods for it
<_QZ> for a sound card u would have an object with settings and stuff and u call the methods associated with that object to do stuff
<ruiner> so its an api
<_QZ> not static
<ruiner> hmmmmmm.......
<_QZ> and it is layered
<_QZ> methods pass messages down to lower methods
<ruiner> sounds time consuming
<ruiner> I'd be counting cycles
<_QZ> nope
10:00pm
<_QZ> i have optimized the kernel interface to make it as fast as it can be
<ruiner> hmmmmmmm
<_QZ> there is way too much that u need to know about it to understand how it works
<ruiner> tell me then
<_QZ> heh
<_QZ> i would rather show u
<ruiner> I hear you missed 2 release dates
<_QZ> who the hell u been talking to? :)
<ruiner> thats classified information
<_QZ> i only missed 1
<_QZ> i released on 1apr99
<ruiner> hmmmmmmm
<ruiner> what hardware do you support so far?
<_QZ> simple stuff
<ruiner> hmmmmmm
<ruiner> support java yet?
10:10pm
<ruiner> a quick way to get a lot of apps running in it
<_QZ> brix doesnt support apps
<ruiner> then you're hurting
<_QZ> hurting?
<_QZ> methods in brix are like cells in the body, they all work together to make shit happen
<ruiner> hmmmm.......
<ruiner> sounds slow
<ruiner> all kinds of calls
<ruiner> almost like an interpreted language
<_QZ> nah
10:20pm
<ruiner> yeah
<_QZ> no
<ruiner> in fact.....its sounds exactly like an interpreted or scripted language
10:30pm
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<_codeman_> what is this tunes about?
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11:00pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0504
IRC log ended Tue May  4 00:00:01 1999