IRC log started Wed May 26 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0526 -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Read error to BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]: EOF from client) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Read error to BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]: EOF from client) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Read error to BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]: EOF from client) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Read error to BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]: EOF from client) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Read error to BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]: EOF from client) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Read error to BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]: EOF from client) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Read error to BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]: EOF from client) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Read error to BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]: EOF from client) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Read error to BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]: EOF from client) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff overfien: #TUNES (Ping timeout for overfien[m49.telcomplus.net]) -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Read error to BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]: EOF from client) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) Anybody home? -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes 06:00am -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Read error to BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]: EOF from client) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Read error to BlackPhoenix[adm.univd.kharkov.ua]: EOF from client) -:- BlackPhoenix [black-phoe@adm.univd.kharkov.ua] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff BlackPhoenix: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- L0ader [yura@dialup1-27.iptelecom.net.ua] has joined #Tunes What dis channel is about? 09:20am What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is about? What dis channel is 09:40am Fuck u all Mother Fucker, stupid, u must die ! Fuck u all Mother Fucker, stupid, u must die !Fuck u all Mother Fucker, stupid, u must die !Fuck u all Mother Fucker, stupid, u must die !Fuck u all Mother Fucker, stupid, u must die !Fuck u all Mother Fucker, stupid, u must die !Fuck u all Mother Fucker, stupid, u must die !Fuck u all Mother Fucker, stupid, u must die !Fuck u all Mother Fucker, stupid, u must die !Fuck u all Mother Fucker, stupid, u must die !Fuck u all Mother Fucker, stupid, u mus -:- SignOff L0ader: #TUNES (Leaving) 09:50am -:- melux [melonbar@yoda.wcis.com] has joined #Tunes hi -:- melux [melonbar@yoda.wcis.com] has left #Tunes [] 11:00am -:- smoke [smoke@195.96.122.81] has joined #tunes hello bonjour, smoke hello abi, the funny bot. 12:00pm -:- NetSplit: forward.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [12:03pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [forward.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: forward.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #Tunes -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- ServerMode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by varley.openprojects.net -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us743.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- LOOKING [user7696@73.webjogger.net] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff LOOKING: #TUNES (Read error to LOOKING[73.webjogger.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- dither [frank@xws059.xtrn03.wwu.edu] has joined #tunes -:- dither [frank@xws059.xtrn03.wwu.edu] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 16 hrs 48 min 45 secs -:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh5-port91.snet.net] has joined #tunes hi hey tril, whats up... writing some e-mail to the list about maintainers of projects. we havent done that for a while ahhh.... i was told you have webspace for os developers? hows that work out? 02:50pm have you seen my page about it? no.. hold on i'll check that out.. :) http://bespin.dhs.org/free-services.html ok.. i'm not totally sure which way i'm going... i'm either going to make the OS cheap and make the developers kit free, or the other way around... cheap == $25 US oh well.. I don't mean free in that sense. It has to be free software by the FSF definition. Which means you can sell it, but you cannot restrict the rights of users to modify and redistribute the source. (that also means other people can sell it for less, or give it away for no cost, though) ummm... with open source i can see one restriction that i'll have... i don't want anyone modifying the source and reselling it as their own... In practice, no one has to make that restriction. People follow it anyway. Wait.. Do you mean taking your name from the credits and claiming they wrote it? That's what I mean, nobody does that. However it is reasoanble that someone else can MODIFY the source and sell the new product. 03:00pm If you use a copyleft license, then they can do that, but they are then restricted from further restricting the license. Which means their modifications are also freely available, and YOU can have them back for your product, too. ok.... so basicly i can require that redistributions of anything dirived by it include source..? Yes. That is the definition of copyleft, which a particular case of "free software". ok... that's something i could do... There is also free software that is not copyleft, where anyone can take the program and make a proprietary version of it. (Proprietary= closed source) but you don't want that, from what you have said. no... if i release full source, so will everyone else who writes off this... check out the "Categories of Free Software" http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/categories.html 03:10pm You want to make Commercial Software that is Copyleft. Red Hat does this.. (Commercial Software is at the very end of the page) their definition of commercial software isn't very complete... can you explain a bit for me? OK. You can sell both proprietary and free software. When you sell proprietary software ,usuaully you are granting a license to use the software in return for a fee. But when you sell free software, you are charging a fee for the act of distributing the software. You can't charge money in return for allowing someone to have the program, since it already has a free software license that says the software is available to everyone. But you charge money in return for getting it to them. The FSF has all their software on their FTP site. But they also sell CDs of it for thousands of dollars. You can buy CDs of FSF software from other people, for much less. now FSF is not a company so they aren't competing to sell the most. But they can also accept donations Red Hat pays programmers to work on free software that is copylefted. The software is free software but Red Hat sells it commercially and pays these people to improve the software. 03:20pm ok.... so i can make it so that the usage agreement says you can give out whatever as long as the credits stay intact and redistributions include full source and are free software also? Yes, the definition is unclear, because the software is commercial if you paid for a copy, but it is not commercial if you just downloaded it. Maybe we should email them about that. cause that's the only way i'm going to do this as free software... i'm not going to give out source and have someone else make proprietory software off it... yes, you can do that.. I'm checking on the credits stay intact part or even give out copies without giving me and whoever else works on it credit... actually that should have anything to do with free or not... isn't there like internation laws on thought theft? ahh Copyright law says that implementations of ideas are copyrightable. That is, the author owns rights to the implementation. And can give away the rights. That's what licenses are. * Fare/#Tunes is back But ideas are not copyrightable and so are not protected under copyright law. 03:30pm billy: Software patents are almost a law against thought theft, but they are evil. HI FARE I put it this way in one of my random .sig-able self-quotes: I do agree that I have to pay for the *opportunity* to read a book or to use a program; I do not agree that I have to pay for the *right* to do so. tril: so what do you think i should do? Fare: Does the charter require no more than one maintainer per sub-project? billy: become familiar with the various licenses, and pick one. You probably won't have to write your own. 03:40pm Tril: I believe it does require one official maintainer per subproject Fare: We're in violation at the root, then. the status of "maintainer" means that you have the last word in case of conflict at least on the written subprojects page it doesn't mean you cannot delegate, and it doesn't mean you must do everything I thought seniority had the last word? Seniority has a negative last word: you can veto (and force a project split, in case disagreement is still there) ok, what's it mean to be a "member" then? You are member of whichever projects you choose? basically, yes what responsibility does a member have? None? unless someone vetoes you out (and isn't himself vetoed) the charter is a way to resolve conflicts. Conflicts are better avoided than solved. well, conflict isn't our problem. It's lack of clear responsibility. I think we should follow the charter and choose one person to maintain each subproject. I.e. Lack of conflict. yeah, I agree. That's nothing the charter itself can solve, however, I fear. well, sure, we have to decide on who are the maintainers. then the charter takes effect. yup It also has the positive side effect of delegating web page maintenance ok it says you are maintaining HLL, can I? you wanna maintain HLL? go ahead! 03:50pm I nominate tcn to maintain LLL and Beholder to maintain root I'll go e-mail them Fare: OK, mail sent. Now, I think the words "Mismaintained by Fare" should be removed from the subprojects page, and replaced by "Seeking maintainer" unless some of them should be reorganized anyway. ok i dont hear a veto on that ... what about this: a file in each directory that lists the maintainer and the members of each subproject. The directories that are not subprojects will not have this file. What should the file be called? .maint? .members? maybe .members, with a special position inside for the maintainer? 04:00pm or a more general subproject mechanism? Don't we want to move ALL web information into text files? why not just a generic metafile in SEXP format, that in particular holds such information? SEXP? SEX, if you prefer Symbolic EXpression I know what it is. i am asking why the parenthesized stuff used in LISP I don't use scsh. I want the file readable by shell scripts because 1) it rocks 2) it's easier to integrate in tools we'll build well, have a shell script syntax, then we can migrate to sexp later like '(TUNES interfaces migration review lll hll) '(hll metatranslator) '(metatranslator c-translator) ? brb back 04:10pm -:- melux [melonbar@yoda.wcis.com] has joined #Tunes well, for instance hi -:- melux [melonbar@yoda.wcis.com] has left #Tunes [] bye melux hum first thing to do is textify the news we need a dir for news files. yup you are the cvs structure guru what dir should it be I recommend we use guile or such for file processing from SEXP what about news/ ? ok news/ it is what is special about guile? it's ubiquitous, it's darned slow, it starts up even more slowly but it has full access to linux file I/O and stuff and it's somewhat documented. and it doesn't rely on idiosyncratic features as e.g. RScheme does. well the home page is NOT www.guile.org. the home page is Review/Languages.html#Scheme the home page is Review/Languages.html#guile, even! 04:20pm then the user is going to require guile to run "make" from cvs? hum. what do you propose? much nicer to just require /bin/sh, if that's what I am going to use anyway I disagree. Much nicer to use what's expedient, until we're bootstrapped enough -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209.122.205.247] has joined #tunes and among what's expedient, to choose something that can be migrated easily into tunes you want me to be expedient? OK I'll just use whatever I find laying around. Maybe perl (GAG) and since we intend to use a lisp dialect, sexp is good. maybe migrate our makefile to use grep and cut, in addition to cat I doubt migrating from perl to tunes would be seamless I hate perl. that was a joke. the "subprojects cgi" project I was doing, I gave up because perl sucks. perl people feel free to say that I suck in return. well, perl has downsides, but it is a great language overall. I would recommend perl for quick&dirty stuff; is there a perl-mode for emacs? of course there is i figured perhaps several, even yeah well too bad, I'm not learning emacs :) thre's a perl mode for vim5, too just in case you're a vi guy I'm a pico user anything pico can't do, I use awk and sed ouch xemacs good. use xemacs. startups instantaneously (assuming you use gnuserv) subdirs of news/ by month ok? or month and year news/1999/05/"Title of Headline", file owner and modification date for the other info. What style for embedded urls? or just year? trusting file owner and mod date is EVIL what is gnuserv? Is that a generic mechanism for keeping frequently loaded binaries running? Like gcc? it's all too unreliable, doesn't show correctly when cvs update, etc. plus, one might like to fix typos, and insert updates 04:30pm OS/2 port of GCC had an environment variable, GCCLOAD, that meant for GCC to go in the background, and not unload/reload for each file being compiled. maybe buffer caching makes that redundant? gnuserv is a server process inside emacs, that accepts commands from a socket; then there's gnuclient that'll tell the running xemacs to seize control of the vt (or open a new X window), and edit given files a numbering scheme for news articles, then. is that multi user? you still need one xemacs instance per user. xemacs itself is a single-user, mostly-single-threaded, OS. so "the running xemacs" means the user has to have one xemacs open on one window already? yup and it can be a background xemacs running inside screen, too I wonder about my idea for X. (this is a new subject) so you don't even have to re-start emacs everytime you log in! (and it gets paged out when you're away) I think a virtual X server, running on bespin, that can accept clients. Then I can talk to the virtual server and have it send clients to an X display I am at. When I need to leave, I signal the virtual server to close the window, but leave it running in the virtual server so I can re-display it later on another X display. I can't imagine that no one has never thought of it before. Tril: maybe it's already doable with VNC darned slow, tho I don't want to re-open the entire display remotely. That IS slow. I just want screen-like capability for X programs. yeah. You could do that with Xvfb and VNC. it could also easily extend to allow sharing the same X client on multiple displays. but it WOULD be slow. because the X protocol just isn't thought for migration (just like the vt100 kind of interface), VNC is slow. If I modified Xvfb it would only be a bottleneck at the virtual server which had to read the X protocol in, and duplicate it going out. That could be fast. so that just like screen, your Xvfb/VNC combo will emulate everything, slowly, and rely on the least capabilities of the actual display I dont want to use Vnc Xvfb would still be slow, since it's completely unaccelerated, and for actual display, you'll still need to do basically like VNC: send raw pixmaps. you can't do better and be compatible with generic X stuff on both sides. I admit I don't know much about the X protocol at least, not unless you're doing something very very clever that fully understands the X protocol, and knows what it can optimize, and what it cannot. 04:40pm in that case, you'd be basically be rewriting an "intelligent" X server from (almost) scratch. Well, I know I could implement the pass-through part of the X protocol. The hard part is how to detach the client from the real server. What will the client be doing while I'm not looking at it? My fake server can be programmed to not send any messages to the client. Would client then be inert? if you consider the fact that there can be mismatch in static server capabilities (like screen size/depth, etc), then the passthrough part becomes tiny. Fare I dont want to redirect the X desktop, but individual windows on it. How would screen size affect one window? Xnest can be a valuable code base to start from color depth, fine. Just use the color depth the app was started with, and if it wont work, then restart the application. just because the window can at any moment query the screen size from the server, and expect it to stay the same forever it can query the color depth, too well, maybe I'm just pessimistic, and a "mostly good" Xscreen could be achieved that work for most apps, anyway * Tril/#tunes learns a little bit more about cvs yeah xscreen is potential project. 04:50pm I'm going to reverse engineer Zelda 1 first, though. hehe don't expect to find much... why 1? It was on the top 10 for 36 months!!!! Zelda is the godess my friend toogam (who runs the world's largest zelda site, zhq.com) wants to make a z1 editor, but doesn't know enough 6502 to find the format of any of the levels. But I learned 6502 when I had a Commodore and I'm relearning it now. Fare because it is simpler than the other ones. A noble endevour... I have speculated quite a bit about its construction... take the source to a dis-assembler and work from there... =) 6502 05:00pm ROCKS! a 52-instruction computer -- less than any single "RISC" CPU of today! i need to try the multitasking OS for the commodore emulator or mayne there is more than one now there are C64 emulators for linux Fare yeah it's kind of elegant There are so many restrictions you can almost always tell exactly what code is doing by looking at what registers something is put in :) of course, the 16 bit address space is somehow tight I used to disassemble apple ][ programs so as to add infinite life, using the limitations of the instruction set few people bothered to "crypt" the initialization of the number of lives in their games I wouldn't bother if I made a game :) I remember Blizzard had lots of trouble with encryption game state in Diablo Diablo? it's a 3/4 perspective 2D RPG with multiplayer by the creators of Warcraft 2 never heard about it In multi-player, in version 1.0, you could use Softice to modify the resident game in Win95 since there is no memory protection but then, I've no more windows on my machines. what's Softice? a hardware emulator in software? softice is a debugger for windows. It's very good. oooh ice! =) -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250123.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes anyway the first diablo 1.0, all these cheats came out. Then in 1.2 they encrypted the player information but people still could invent fake items. Then they made any item that was suspect of being fake, to disappear, causing problems from network lag and lost items... hey TCN hey get my email? Fare: OK I figured out CVS odd behavior. hum. my configuration files show that my laptop has been connected to at least 14 different physical and logical networks (i.e. ifconfig and/or pppd configuration) Tril: why was that? If I create a new directory in CVS, it won't be created on update unless you use "cvs update -d" oh 05:10pm That is because sometimes people want to checkout, but ignore certain dirs Tril: umm.. what was the subject? update -d causes all the missing dirs to be created cool tcn, LLL maintenance nope :( No you haven't read it? I don't seem to have it -:- HickServ [thrustit@209.68.229.88] has joined #tunes Tril: this deserves a note in collaboration.html Tril: addressed to me or tunes-lll? tcn I sent to tcn@tunes.org only Fare : yup Hick: Hi hello high good fare :) Tril: must still be in the pipeline hi rather howdy hick Fare go ahead if you want to make the note Tcn basically it is the question whether you will be official maintainer of LLL? Tril: sure I like low level things :) me too ah, there it is im writing another lll my own i want something a little different than plain forth a nonstandard forth? no tcn I thought u didnt have ANS forth yet either i don't want forth at all Tril: nope ANS forth sucks, anyway * tcn/#tunes nods ANS != ANSI? american national standard Forth i want something that is the same idea as forth but different the I in ANSI is Institution or such is that a different meaning than saying "ANSI C" why dont we say "ANS C"? HickServ: oh, something elegant.. simple, practical, and powerful..? maybe ANS is not from the ANSI? ANS *is* from the ANSI ok Fare will you modify collaboration or shall I heh I did hey fare im curious what exactly do you do as a profession and how old are you? HS: I wrote my home page specifically not to have to answer these questions anymore http://www.tunes.org/~fare :) kool fare OK when do you plan to check in those changes? if you still have questions afterwards, feel free to ask Tril: tonight fine well if you give a speech about metaprogramming you must be somewhat important 05:20pm brb back you missed it! ok, done (cvs commit) tcn: uh? missed what the end of the world? french and vietnamese wow there must be quite a lot of conflict there HS: why so? HS: 100 years of french occupation ties a lot of links hehehe well after the war that is hey, anyone hear about the earthquake scare in Peru? HS: there has been war indeed, but that was mostly french vs commies, and we liked neither french nor commies. i see well that's cool -:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes both were murderers; the french mostly out of stupidity; the commies out of sheer evil. I should add GREED and stupidity for the french. ENVY and evil for the commies. <_QZ> the french are stupid? :) well i try not to over generalize about communitsts QZ: just a bit less than the yankees. many were imperialists but some had good intentions QZ: no. Much less than the yankees, which is already too much. HS: most french people didn't care. But it just takes a minority in power to decide of war. it's just we in the us have been taught that all communnists are evil yes HS: oppression exists to suit the purpose of a minority heh fare let's get back to tunes i was wondering about something most french people suffered much more from colonies than they won. But the tiny fraction in power won a lot. The net result is way negative, but it only takes a positive outcome for the rulers. HS: just because you have been told so doesn't mean it's false. of course i didn't say that the system many times trys to put ideas in our heads HS: although I doubt you were remotely given the right reasons for just WHY they were evil. 05:30pm yes and HOW evil they were. its our misinformed stereotype created from the cold war the communist party and parties to its left are still ~15% of votes in France. us citizens are so impresionable which is such a big problem HS: just ANY mob is impresionable uh huh tell me about it masses are for the weak anyway back to tunes how will objects be built from other objects im wondering ? Cannot stat authentication socket directory /tmp/ssh-dem what's that mean (from scp)? building from other objects, it's really like you do in any other language Tril: never heard about that. Is that scp1 or scp2? are you using ssh-agent or such? i ran ssh on bespin I'm sure it's ssh1 i havent messed with the agent im talking about the no-kernel Hick: In my model it's all based on functions, accessing "parts" of an object is done using functions, and putting them there involves just setting up the functions to return the parts you want. 05:40pm later.. bye hmmmm oh yeah, I'll update the tunes-lll page good :) tcn: im really new to most of the concepts in tunes I will have a proposal for the LLL within a few decades... DECA... =P could someone help me out with what metacode and programming? heh Hick: What is the question? I could give you some examples what is metacode and meta progeramming? ok shoot tcn are you leaving when you run an assembler, that's metaprogramming... you've having a program (the assembler) work on another program. a metaprogram is any program that manipulates other programs oh but in tunes we're talking about higher levels, higher than a compiler we are? :) fare talks about each threads having some metacode I dont know what that means (FARE still here?)