IRC log started Wed Jun  2 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0602
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<Fare> gakuk
05:20am
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<tcn> hola, fare
<tcn> oh yeah, it's 3am over there :)
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07:30am
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<Fare> hum    
<smkl> hello Fare
<Fare> ole, sami
<smkl> what's up?
<Fare> the volume of things TODO in my schedule
<Fare> and bizarrely, my cable modem connection ,too
<Fare> what about you.?
<smkl> i have admission tests
08:50am
<smkl> (or is it entrance examination?)
<Fare> don't ask *me* about english stuff
<Fare> (I'm not even sure about the french, you know!=
<Fare> admission to what, bt<?
<smkl> university and polytechnique
<Fare> are these exams or competitions?
<smkl> exams
09:00am
<Fare> math? physics? CS?
<smkl> i've applied for CS and math. i have exams in math, physics, chemistry and CS (no idea what kind of questions they'll ask about CS)
<Fare> reminds me when I was younger, and applied for french "grandes ecoles"
<Fare> if that's an exam, what happens if more people apply than there are places lefT?
<smkl> the ones who get most points get the places
<Fare> ok, so it's really a competition, not an exam
09:10am
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<jpaul> What's tunes?
<abi> tunes is in my head or a useful nevertheless expedient system or at http://tunes.org/ or a free reflective computing system or to programming languages what the internet is to computer networks
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<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> abi -
<AlonzoTG> abi == bot
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10:20am
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<AlonzoTG> topick?
<Beholder> Hello
<Beholder> Alon:  Where do you work?
10:30am
* AlonzoTG/#tunes is unemployed. =(
<AlonzoTG> the new wheels on my kar shake =(
<AlonzoTG> if they can't be rebalanced then I donno what I'm gonna do.
10:40am
<Beholder> Get them balanced at a service centre...  I don't think it's that expensive
<AlonzoTG> they can't be balanced on the outside =\
<AlonzoTG> only on the inside...
<AlonzoTG> I think the tires reseated themselves as I was driving out of the lot messing up the balance...
<AlonzoTG> will balance them tomorrow after class...
10:50am
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<tcn> hey
<smkl> hello
12:40pm
<tcn> hey, you know any good places to buy computer parts?
<tcn> i'm looking for some place that ain't too sleazy
12:50pm
<tcn> ooooh I want this MB: Win98 zx w/ built in DVD decoder & sound card
<tcn> haha
<AlonzoTG> hmm.
<AlonzoTG> whatchyalookinfor?
<AlonzoTG> I use pricewatch.com then buy namebrand at the price I want. =)
<AlonzoTG> make sure you get a 30 day guarentee
<tcn> jesus christ! they have 16MB video cards now!
<tcn> yeah, I know about pricewatch
<AlonzoTG> I am in a SBC mood..
<AlonzoTG> my nekst machine will use a passive backplane and a SBC to controll it. 
<tcn> man, all the local computer stores are sleazy.. they sell crap at a high price
<AlonzoTG> hehe
<tcn> how about a rackmount case?
<tcn> :)
<AlonzoTG> A good SBC costs around $500 for the bare board...
<AlonzoTG> nah...
<AlonzoTG> I'll keep my AT but I have gotten sick of always upgrading my Mobo all the time...
<Fare> gakuk
<AlonzoTG> I have gone through about 4 mobos in the last ten years... =\
<tcn> rackmounts.. get about 12 of them, build a rack, link em all together with FDDI or SCSI or something
<tcn> I never upgrade my MB's
<Fare> tcn: can you guide me at finding where RETRO fails to boot on my computer?
<tcn> Fare: ok
<tcn> which computer?
<Fare> my DELL laptop
<Fare> (works great on the 6x86 desktop)
<Fare> btw, I had to downclock the 6x86 back to 150MHz, because I installed win95 for my bro, and altho linux works great @165MHz, Windows is unstable
<tcn> yeah
<Fare> hum. Is there stow for RH5.2 ?
<tcn> dunno
* Fare/#Tunes has problems: all his machines are still RH5.2, except his main machine, the laptop
<tcn> hey, I started installing linux on my old 486 w/ 4MB the other day
<tcn> it requires some dirty hacks :)
<Fare> 4MB? ouch. Even my original 386 had 8MB (I insisted, because I knew  moderner OSes than DOS wouldn't be satisfied w/ 4)
<tcn> so, what's your laptop doing?
01:00pm
<Fare> It's hanging after displaying the RETRO loader #8 message
<Fare> right afterwards
<tcn> does it run the floppy at all?
* Fare/#Tunes df's and sees that his naive debian install takes 2GB of disk
<Fare> tcn: good question
<tcn> u installed all of debian??
<tcn> heh
<Fare> not all, but quite a lot
<tcn> Fare: you need to do a 'dichotomy boot'..
<Fare> not enough space on Kadath (the desktop) to do a straigthforward cp -a based debian install 
<Fare> tcn: yeah, I know
<tcn> start with kernel/boot.asm
<Fare> lemme relog from Kadath
<tcn> Fare: can you see the cursor?
<Fare> hum. I'm now on K, so I can reboot Z
<tcn> just put "call print_nl" in various places throughout boot.asm and init.asm, and see how many lines the cursor moves down. :)
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<Fare> is there a way to also print a string? that would help, for it's harder to count
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<tcn> yeah:  mov bp, string     call print_string
<Fare> happily, ZhengHe has save-memory-to-disk feature, so I can resume linux in a short time
<tcn> and of course, "string  db "ladsfsd",0 at the bottom of boot.asm
<Fare> RETRO #8 bootloader\n, then it reboots after a few seconds
<tcn> oh, first you wanna do a 'jmp $' to find out where it reboots
<Fare> tcn: is there some kindof macro to do the print stuff?
<tcn> Fare: not before pmode initializes (in pmode.inc)
<tcn> It goes like this: boot.asm -> init.inc -> pmode.inc -> modules
<Fare> have you rather a print_num?
<tcn> yup, there's a print_hex
<Fare> tcn: could you document that in a file?
<Fare> will print_hex newline?
<tcn> yeah, I'm putting this stuff in doc/faq.txt
<tcn> no newline in print_hex
<tcn> but there's print_nl
<tcn> my bad, it's hex_print
01:10pm
<Fare> can you gimme a macro to print a hex and newline (w/ pushad/popad) ?
<tcn> and it prints the word at ss:bp
<Fare> (and pushf, too`
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<tcn> ok
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01:20pm
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<tcn> hey anders
<binEng> hi
<abi> hola, binEng
<binEng> or rather, hi tom
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01:30pm
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<tcn> how are K6-III's?
<binEng> Speaking to me? No idea.
<tcn> I decided to get a new box
<tcn> I got a job, starting monday :)
<binEng> ah, nice
<binEng> A new box is never wrong
<binEng> Neither is a job, I guess
<tcn> I beg to differ
<binEng> Let your opinion be heard
<tcn> some people buy too much shit
<binEng> Not that I'd call a new computer 'shit'...
<tcn> hehe.. I could use a nice solid steel, RF-shielded rackmount case :)
<tcn> damn computers give off too much interference
<tcn> Say you went out and bought a compaq presario, or something like that.. wouldn't that be shit?
<binEng> I guess I'm lucky not experiencing trouble with that
<tcn> it's worst with shortwave.. sometimes it affects FM
<binEng> uh, agreed. But I trust you wouldn't do that
<binEng> My sister's got that problem, but not I
<tcn> hehe
<tcn> or an Imac :)
<binEng> pleease
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ...)
<tcn> I'm just getting a new MB, case, and drivers.. SCSI this time, IDE sucks.
<tcn> the IDE interface is simpler, but limiting
<binEng> The problem is, SCSI don't get it that hardware is supposed to become cheaper
<tcn> I found a BT-958 card for $70
<tcn> (as opposed to a 2940 for $250)
<binEng> Not that I'm very bewandered in SCSI stuff
<tcn> anyone have a Quantum HD die on them?
<AlonzoTG> om?
01:40pm
<tcn> hehe.. HD seek times haven't improved in 10 years
<binEng> that sucks
<binEng> Just get a huge RAM :)
<tcn> yeah, it's cheap now
<tcn> soon, RAM will undercut HD's
<binEng> But if you'd need say 10-15 GB of it?
<tcn> :)
<tcn> i'm gonna go for a 7200 rpm drive
<tcn> or 9000? :)
<binEng> Who knows, in reality maybe there's just some magic RAM under the hood of HDs... a conspiracy!
<binEng> The faster the better, right?
<tcn> yeah
<tcn> I hear they can get hot, though
<binEng> isn't there some built-in fan, then?
<tcn> you just need more case fans
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<tcn> I found a case with room for 3 fans :)
<binEng> :)
<binEng> Go for it :)
<tcn> my 2 IDE drives get kinda warm
<binEng> what, you measure the temp, or?
<tcn> by hand :)
<binEng> heh
<tcn> I noticed a slight temp. increase when I put the second one in
<tcn> pulled it outta my old 486, and put the 120 back in that :)
<tcn> and I have 3 OSes on that 120meg drive :)  dos, linux, retro
<binEng> But they should think about such things when they make 'em, don't you think?
<binEng> excuse me, did u say 120mb?
* tcn/#tunes nods
<binEng> whoa
<tcn> 1990 vintage
<binEng> is that all you have??
<tcn> it's like an old car.. I keep tinkering with it, keeping it alive
<tcn> a 486-33 4MB and a P-133 64MB
<binEng> Do yoactually do anything on that old pal?
<tcn> the 64MB helps alot.. kicks any 16-32MB computer's ass, no matter how fast the cpu
<binEng> I'm sure
<tcn> I test retro on it. I used to play a few old DOS games on it.. but I'll use this 133 for that, when I get the new box.
01:50pm
<binEng> ic. I've sometimes thought it'd be great to have a few old boxes with network cards to test out a new OS or some simple network game implementation
<tcn> damn man! There are all these bogus companies with names *almost* like big names :)
<binEng> BTW, are you interested in game development too?
<tcn> yeah
<binEng> cool. Everyone around are.
<tcn> but the only thing I ever *finish* is system programs.
<tcn> I wrote a wavetable synth for a game library, but never did write my game :)
<binEng> The thought comes to mind that I finish few things at all... :p
<binEng> :)
<binEng> Any special kind of games?
<tcn> I've finished a few text adventures
<binEng> Ordinary ones? No new exiting ideas?
<tcn> well.. I found a game I designed when I was a kid.. a paper plane simulator :)
<tcn> it's the only really cool game I've ever thought up.. the rest were too much like everything else
<binEng> uh, sounds... interesting?
<binEng> Have you seen The Matrix?
<tcn> the technology to do this paper plane simulator is just becoming available
<tcn> matrix? nope.. I might..
<binEng> a shame. I've got this idea that is much like that
<binEng> You know what it's about, at least, not?
<tcn> yeah, in this simulator you don't fight enemy MiG's.. instead you have cats, stove burners, fans, those kind of threats :)
<tcn> tril told me a little about the matrix
<binEng> Yes, Tril told me too. I saw the film on the computer
<tcn> on the computer???
<binEng> uh yes, played it from a file, you know
<Fare> ok, so I've migrated my dev environment from ZhengHe to Kadath
<tcn> allright
<binEng> Fare: Should we congratulate you? :9
<binEng> If you have a fast connection, we could arrange a transfer
<tcn> 31.2 kbps
<tcn> maybe when I move I'll be close enough to the CO to get 56k
<binEng> not quite fast enough... it's some 350 MB I think
<tcn> heheh
<tcn> i'll just go to the cheap theater
<binEng> hehe, yeah that sounds like a better solution
<Fare> tcn: so I insert hexp stuff anywhere in boot.asm and kernel.asm?
<tcn> Fare: boot.asm and init.inc
<Fare> isn't lack of pushf/popf a problem?
<tcn> oh :)
02:00pm
<tcn> probably not, as long as you don't put it in the wrong place
<tcn> add it if you need it
<tcn> ugh. I hate image-only www sites
<tcn> laggggggg
<Fare> wierd: the two hexp I added are such that it doesn't reboot anymore! :~ :~
<tcn> hehe
<Fare> right before call init_GDT, and right before cli
<Fare> heisenbug!
<tcn> haha
<Fare> let's remove the second one and see...
<tcn> what in the hell could be wrong?
<tcn> maybe you should use 'hang' first
<tcn> just isolate the reboot
<Fare> w/o the second hexp, it reboots
<tcn> ok
<tcn> put in a hang right before 'jmp dword 8:pmode'
<Fare> w/ the second hexp, it works fine
<tcn> and comment out the hexp's
<tcn> now try
<Fare> when I type too fast, I get <00000000 > stuff on screen
02:10pm
<tcn> good sign
<tcn> on your laptop or desktop?
<Fare> on the laptop.
<Fare> the desktop worked fine last time I tried, but I won't reboot it, now
<tcn> umm.. that means the keyboard driver is running
<tcn> oh, right, I gotcha :)
<Fare> when I hang, it hangs
<tcn> <Fare> w/ the second hexp, it works fine
<tcn> missed that :)
<tcn> ok, remove the hang from init.inc, and put a hang as the first thing in pmode.inc
<tcn> right after pmode:
<Fare> looks like it hangs
<tcn> and you took out the hexp's in init.inc?
<Fare> yup
<tcn> this is too weird :)
<Fare> it hangs, rather than reboots, so that the error is afterwards.
<Fare> maybe calling hexp has the bios initialize some device properly
<Fare> or gives some I/O device time to recover?
<tcn> maybe
<tcn> try surrounding it with pushf/popf
<Fare> maybe replace hexp with a loop?
<tcn> I think the kbd driver needs some delays too
<tcn> heh.. this www site has a 106kb image that's 3 cm square :)
02:20pm
<tcn> Fare: what did "pushf ; call hexp ; popf" do?
02:30pm
>>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250127.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 928359316 527171 from #tunes
<tcn> damn, computer parts have gotten cheap!
<binEng> what is the world coming to, eh?
<tcn> yeah... I bet that's just because they're shittier
<tcn> s/bet/know/
<tcn> IBM PC's and Apple II's still run.. 1998 stuff is already breaking
<binEng> :)
<tcn> 16MB video cards.. heh.. I could use 14MB of that as l3 cache
02:40pm
<tcn> oh yeah, 128-bit color :)
<tcn> and z-buffer
<binEng> sure, sure
<tcn> I guess that stuff eats VRAM
<tcn> hehe.. $20 for a good video card
<binEng> I doubt
<tcn> 4MB vram.. that's twice what I got now :)
<tcn> and I paid $100 for this card
<tcn> oooh I could get a joystick :)  ain't had one of them for 10 years
<binEng> you're really shopping :)
02:50pm
<tcn> I gotta see what's out there
<tcn> I haven't kept up with technology ;)
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<tcn> hey qz
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<tcn> maybe you can help
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<Fare> hum
* Fare/#Tunes has problems with cable modem
<Fare> tcn: still here?
<tcn> Fare: yeah
* Fare/#Tunes 's Apple ][+'s language card died -- several times
<Fare> also, it was overheating in summer, so that you could only play for some 15 minutes at a time
<_QZ> tcn: with what?
<Fare> tcn: so, pushf doesn't seem like it's doing anything
<Fare> with hexp, pushf or not, it works
03:00pm
<tcn> Fare: hmm.. i guess it's a delay thing.. any luck using a loop?
<Fare> with a small loop, it reboots
<tcn> qz: you keep up with computer hardware.. i'm getting a new box, having trouble figuring out what the fuck to get :)
<Fare> smal: cx starts with 0
<_QZ> what do u need it to do?
<Fare> (65536 cycles)
<tcn> qz: will an asus p2b work with a K6-2 or -3?
<_QZ> uhh, no
<_QZ> p2b is slot1
<tcn> what's a k6 need?
<_QZ> super7
<tcn> PGA?
<tcn> oh
<Fare> your retailer should help you choose
<_QZ> if u want a k6 then go for a fic mvp3 board
<Fare> isn't "loop $" the right way to do a pause???
<tcn> Fare: the computer stores around here are sleazy
<Fare> tcn: then by direct
<Fare> s/by/buy/
<tcn> Fare: they'll tell me I need this $1000 no-name thing :)
<Fare> go netwinder! ;->
<_QZ> heh
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<tcn> Fare: how about ".1: nop nop nop loop .1"
<Fare> are there comparisons between a netwinder and a same-clocked PC on standard things (compilation of some big portable program)
<Fare> tcn: is .1 a local thing?
<_QZ> local label
<_QZ> u can just boost the value in ecx instead of using nop's
<_QZ> and then do loop $
<tcn> qz: this is realmode.. he already tried cx=$ffff
* Fare/#Tunes finally chooses to explicitly dec eax, so as to allow for big loops in 16-bit mode
<tcn> you could do ".1 push ecx ; mov ecx, 65535 ; loop $ ; pop ecx ; loop .1"
<Fare> tcn: wrong: .1 must be after the mov!!!
<_QZ> mov cx,ffff ; x: ; push cx ; mov cx,ffff ; loop $ ; pop cx ; loop x
<Fare> I must be doing something wrong: even a 0x10000000 loop is instantaneous!!!
<_QZ> Fare: what cpu?
<Fare> isn't %1 the argument to a macro???
<Fare> PMMX
<tcn> Fare: yup
<Fare> how are you sure that jnz will choose the *earlier* .1 ?
<tcn> Fare: don't use two .1's.. use .1, .2, .asdf, .fjdi, or whatever u want
03:10pm
<_QZ> x: ; .1 ; y: ; .1
<tcn> qz: what's a decent video card that works w/ X?
<_QZ> x.1 is not the same as y.1
<_QZ> matrox G200
<Fare> ok; now with a 4G-cycle loop, it *does* wait!
<tcn> matrox publishes all their specs?
<_QZ> yup
<tcn> any other graphics-card companies like that?
<_QZ> matrox was the first 3d gfx company to publish register specs for its cards
<_QZ> and only
<AlonzoTG> awesome! 
<AlonzoTG> =)
<binEng> Help me, what's the name of that language which you can implement in chisel?
<Fare> ok, so with a big enough loop, it looks like it works!
<tcn> cool
<Fare> lemme remove the loop...
<tcn> we should really use a port 61h delay
<Fare> that's wierd, for it's only a loop during init
<Fare> the rest of the code looks kindof fine afterwards
<Fare> tcn: we should use the same delay as linux
<tcn> Fare: the bogomips thing? :)
<Fare> tcn: linux works just everywhere I tried, so they must be doing something right.
<tcn> port 61h delays the same amount of time on all machines
<tcn> I used it in floppy.asm, if you want to copy it from there to init.inc
<AlonzoTG> groovie =)
<Fare> tcn: hum. dunno. indeed, maybe this stupid bogomips thingie has been saving linux's ass for years, in a way unsuspected by anyone...
<AlonzoTG> windoze crashed on ultra fast K6 chips because it didn't have bogomips! =P
<AlonzoTG> the theorie behind it is quite sound. 
<tcn> heh
<tcn> so if I get a K6-III 400, I can't use 'doze?
<tcn> awwww damn!
<tcn> it's ironic, because 'doze is the only thing that needs something that fast
<AlonzoTG> they patched it soon after the bug was discovered
<AlonzoTG> =)
03:20pm
<AlonzoTG> hehe
<_QZ> no windows uses something like bogomips but because the k6 is optimized for loops it overflowed windows 'bogomips' value
<_QZ> the k6 can do an empty loop about 3 times faster than a pentium
<AlonzoTG> funky!
<AlonzoTG> weren't they using a full sized register?
<AlonzoTG> the thing would have to run at 4 gigahertz to overflow!!!
<AlonzoTG> =\
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 19 hrs 8 min 51 secs
<_QZ> the k6-200 can do something like 900 million loops per second
<_QZ> the k6-2 is even faster at the same clock
<tcn> I noticed you can get k6-2's for like $40 :)
<AlonzoTG> 900 mil isn't 4 bil...
<AlonzoTG> hmmz...
<Fare> Tril!!!!
<_QZ> AlonzoTG: and the k6-200 doesnt need the windows patch, DUH!
<tcn> hey tril
<Fare> could I plug a K6 or K6-II on that good old asus t2p4?
<_QZ> u can put the k6 in but not the k6-2
<Fare> hum. I guess I'll stay with that good old 6x86L-P200+ (150)
<Fare> maybe overclock it back to 165, and say goodbye to Win9X
<Fare> tcn: will you add the wait code?
<Fare> tcn: you're the right man to do it correctly, after all...
<_QZ> Fare: what are u writing?
<tcn> Fare: yeah, allright.. I'll commit, then you update from cvs and tune the loop.
03:30pm
<tcn> doough! I bet I know!
<tcn> ;TODO: Wait for A20 to come on (by testing a high memory location)
<tcn> most computers don't care.. I think yours does :)
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<Fare> QZ: uh?
<tcn> Fare: we're debugging retro so it works on fare's laptop
<Fare> tcn: shouldn't we cli() *before* to enable A20 ?
<tcn> say, fare.. has maneesh ever done anything besides complain?
<Fare> tcn: let the guy complain
<Fare> tcn: everyone's his job
<hcf> if he didnt someone else would fill the spot
<tcn> hehe
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<Fare> yes, we do need some "bad conscience" in the team!
<Fare> someone to remind us our weaknesses
<Fare> tcn: you mean, you didn't wait for A20 to complete???
<tcn> nope :)
<tcn> probably a bad idea, eh?
<tcn> I think most computers enable it pretty quick (a matter of nanoseconds), so it's enabled by the time I access high mem
<tcn> while I'm at it, I'm gonna have it count RAM.. I still ain't done that :)
<tcn> I just assume you have 4 megs
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<tcn> anyway, good debugging
03:40pm
<tcn> get this:
<tcn>                     Year 200 Test Approved, CE, FCC Logos 
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<HickServ> hey i got a question
<tcn> hey hs
<HickServ> hello
<HickServ> i've never had to use drivers in actual programming, how are they accesed by a program?
<Tril> what os?
<HickServ> um
<tcn> hs: they're like any other functions
<HickServ> i'll say linux
<Tril> in linux drivers usually are accessed through files in /dev.
<Fare> year 200 approved?
<Fare> does it mean you know the difference between julian and gregorian calendars?
<Tril> you open the file "/dev/audio" for instance and write sound to it, and the sound card plays it.
<tcn> except.. if the program is running in usermode, it needs to make a system call (with some overhead) to communicate with the driver, which runs in supervisor mode.
<HickServ> i see
<HickServ> ok
<Fare> the everything-is-a-file-but-not-quite UNIX paradigm is LAME
<HickServ> one other question
<tcn> the /dev/* things are buffers. Your programs writes to it, then when the multitasker gets to the driver, the driver retrieves data from the buffer.
<Tril> Fare: here's to custom IOCTL's for all files!
<tcn> hahaha
<HickServ> when you write drivers in c how is the os supposed to know the address of each function when it is mapped
<hcf> Fare: u mean, streams
<Fare> tcn: in my experience, keyboard hardware, particularly of laptops, is *very* strange
<tcn> hs: linker
<Fare> HickServ: it has lookup tables, so that you must explicitly register functions in a table
<Fare> HS: something very ugly to do in C
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<Fare> (or any other language; except that in LISP or in FORTH, you can hide it in macros)
<HickServ> how are retro functions made in asm?
<HickServ> uh
<AlonzoTG> damn peer
<AlonzoTG> I have been up and running for 6 hours now...
<AlonzoTG> =\
<HickServ> drivers
03:50pm
<tcn> hs: read the source :)
<Tril> lookup tables should be generic functions.
<Fare> AlonzoTG: did peer reset your connection?
<HickServ> ok tcn i will
<tcn> hs: I comment pretty heavily
<HickServ> good
* Fare/#Tunes proposes that peer be banned from the internet
<HickServ> i believe heavily in commenting
<HickServ> i comment almost every two lines
* Fare/#Tunes chants "oh heavy commenting, we do believe in you!"
<Tril> Fare, no it was a ping timeout
<HickServ> YES!
* Fare/#Tunes sings the gospel of heavy commenting, our lord!
<HickServ> you know in the military you gotta put two lines of comments for each line of code 
* Tril/#TUNES comments some disassembly listings
<HickServ> i guess that's because the stuff has to last 30 years
<tcn> in college programming courses, you gotta comment in a certain format
<HickServ> tcn: where can i download the source?
<tcn> (explains why I didn't take CS)
<Fare> a crook killed a subway ticket controler, and the whole subway personel is striking for two days!
<tcn> hs: oh :)  tunes.org/~tcn/retro.html
<Tril> tcn: Preconditions, postconditions, identify arguments, and purpose of the function.
<HickServ> yeah im there
<HickServ> whick part
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<Tril> actually doing the formal style of commenting does help..
<HickServ> oh
<HickServ> i see
<tcn> Tril: I do something like that
<tcn> but not religiously
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* Fare/#Tunes restores the linux memory image from disk -- my, these laptops do in hardware what we should be doing in software!
<Fare> Manoj: gakuk!
<HickServ> Apple II's 
<HickServ> YES!
<Tril>  foo
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<Tril> blah
<tcn> _QZ: what's the web site for FIC?  fic.com was an italian milk-cooler company :)
<Manoj> Fare: ?
<Fare> Apple ][, not II, you nuts!
<Fare> (or possibly, //e or //c)
<HickServ> hi Alonzo
<Tril> tcn the motherboard company?
<Fare> tcn: www.tomshardware.com should have the right link...
* Fare/#Tunes needn't better hardware, but better software
<Tril> fica.com (FIC of America)
<HickServ> .//c is my favorite :)
<HickServ> after //e they started to look gay
<Fare>  //e is more expandable
<HickServ> yeah
<Fare> my favorite is /usr/local/bin/apple2, anyway
<Fare> (except that it isn't compatible enough)
<HickServ> uh
<HickServ> this is complicated
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<HickServ> i want the source but there is too much to do
<Fare> HS: which source?
<Tril> Hick there is a retro.zip on the web page isnt there?
<Tril> you dont have to use CVS..
04:00pm
<Fare> Tril: there must be a retro snapshot in the usual ftp plazce...
<HickServ> nevermind
<tcn> retro.zip isn't up to date
<tcn> the .tar.bz is
<tcn> hs: use cvsweb, if you just want to browse the source
<tcn> I use it myself :)
<HickServ> well im on a shitty win comp right now
<HickServ> i can't decompress it
<HickServ> ok
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<HickServ> password anonymous and login is what?
<Tril> anonymous
<Tril> what are you doing
<Tril> do you have WinCVS?
<HickServ> no
<HickServ> that doesn't work
<HickServ> Login Incorrect
<Fare> HS: there's a great pair of Windows programs, named FIPS and LOADLIN
<HickServ> *sigh*
<Tril> what are you doing
<Fare> thanks to them, you can seamlessly access CVS, use bzip2, etc
<Tril> hickserv:? ?
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Ping timeout for tcn[cci-209150250127.clarityconnect.net])
<HickServ> i have no intention of downloading anything for this peice of shit
<hcf> anyone here fluent in german?
<Fare> HS: at worst, you can telnet bespin, and browse what's in ~tunes/tunes
<HickServ> im learning
<HickServ> jajaja :)
<hcf> whats 'unten lieben lauten loben' in english?
<HickServ> considering most of the people in my family are fluent
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<HickServ> something love something something 
<HickServ> hehehe
<HickServ> i told you im learning
<hcf> HickServ: i knew that and iv never "learnt" the language
<HickServ> well so what?
<abi> i think so what is this channel about?
<HickServ> i don't really care
<HickServ> im concentrating my recources on spanish
04:10pm
<HickServ> uh
<HickServ> wtf
<HickServ> that's in that queer song
<hcf> huh?
<HickServ> that um'
<HickServ> song heh
<hcf> yeah
<HickServ> it's the very beginning
<hcf> def leppard's rock of ages
<HickServ> oh
<HickServ> that isn't queer
<HickServ> but that one band who copied it
<hcf> they put 'g' sounds at the beginning of each word tho
<hcf> offspring's pretty fly for a white guy
<HickServ> yeah
<HickServ> dumb
<tcn> yeah, they suck!
<HickServ> well i've barely begun to learn german
<HickServ> but both my mother and father are fluent
<HickServ> in fact my mom is in germany right now
<hcf> the def lep faq says that the phrase is gibberish and was used to replace '1, 2, 3, 4'
<HickServ> um
<hcf> but, using babelfish iv found that is basically means: under loud loving praise
<Tril> i never heard of bablfish II much less II or IV :P
<Fare> hum. How come the retro snapshot still hasn't the keymaps???
04:20pm
<_QZ> t appears that the task of
<_QZ>                 making Windows NT a 64-bit operating system is much more difficult than
<_QZ>                 Microsoft had imagined. 
<Fare> ok, now I know
<HickServ> hehehe
<HickServ> do it qz and let m$ ph34r you
<Fare> tcn: you've been using .map, and I was excluding .map as the suffix of TLINK-generated stuff...
<Fare> inheritance of precambrian tunes...
<tcn> Fare: ahh!
<_QZ> Now it has acknowledged that it can't really turn Windows NT into a
<_QZ>                 consumer operating system anytime soon, so it has decided not to discontinue
<_QZ>                 Windows 98 development
<HickServ> really
<HickServ> windows?
<abi> it has been said that windows is a 32bit patch for a 16bit shell on an 8bit OS originally made for 4bit machines by a 2bit company that can't stand 1bit of competition
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<_QZ> http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9903/24/mslinux.html/
<HickServ> oh no
<tcn> Between all our OS's, something great has to surface
<HickServ> don't tell me
<tcn> MS will lose that market
<HickServ> yeah
<HickServ> i say BuenOS will be it :)
<tcn> and without an OS to promote their software, they'll leave the software industry
<tcn> and becoming a holding company for communications companies
<HickServ> and what is their hardware industry (a shitty mouse?)
<tcn> hahaah
<tcn> the AutoPC ?
<Tril> where's the REPT button in applewin
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<tcn> jesus, they sell $600 cases :)
<water> hi all
<Tril> HI WATer
<tcn> hey brian
<water> i finally moved into the house, and have a new internet account
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> I need d00dz to help with my OS....
<HickServ> i used to think ms word was cool till i tried putting all my notes in electronic format
<HickServ> 'oh god
<water> what's the topic?
<abi> the topic is http://tunes.org (Reflective Computing) http://tunes.org/papers/Arrow/ (Arrow paper available!) http://tunes.org/~dem/tunes/Specifications.html (Tril's draft specs)
<water> ok
<Tril> hey that's old!
<HickServ> i don't feel like reading th earrow paper
<Tril> I'm currently playing Rocky's Boots :)
<HickServ> es mucho largo
<water> well, there should be an introduction soon.
<Tril> i need to think of a program to write for my last homework assignment this term..
<tcn> I finally found a 19" rackmount computer case.. only $239 :)
<HickServ> i can't wait till i take a cs course in high school
<Tril> it needs to have shared memory between multiple processes.
<HickServ> i can challenge th ebadic class and take advanced computer programming
<HickServ> basic
<Tril> ebcdic?
04:30pm
<Fare> abi can't even read a topic correctly!
<HickServ> abi: crack is what you smoke
<abi> hickserv: bugger all, i dunno
<Fare> Tril: what assignment is it?
<Fare> abi: HickServ?
<abi> i guess HickServ is the father of BuenOS and is chicano too or part of the Sicilian Mafia
<Tril> you mean what class?  Concurrency, Communication, and Multithreading.  The assignment is to make up an assignment, because neither the teacher nor the class as a group could think of what they wanted to do.
<Fare> abi: tcn?
<abi> tcn is gone. or doing his project for his own education.
<hcf> abi: no, topic is TUNES http:www.tunes.org || docs http://bespin.tunes.org/~qz/borg.qzx.com
<abi> okay, hcf.
<Tril> but it has to have 2 processes with some shared memory.
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: TUNES http:www.tunes.org || docs http://bespin.tunes.org/~qz/borg.qzx.com
<Fare> hcf: you no more like jmc?
<hcf> just thot it was old
<hcf> and that everyone had seen it by now
<Fare> jmc is old, sure
<Fare> but he's still mentally active
<Fare> and no, I've never seen him
<hcf> i like that he puts up his old papers
<hcf> instead of the commonly done plain list of publications
<tcn> jmc?
<abi> jmc is old, sure
<tcn> yeah but where's his page?
<Tril> 'ti what hcf just removed from topic :)
<Fare> no, jmc is at http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: TUNES http:www.tunes.org || docs http://bespin.tunes.org/~qz/borg.qzx.com || jmc http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/index.html || top, etc http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/
<hcf> there, something old, something new
<Fare> ok, retro snapshot now has keymaps as should
<Fare> tcn: did you put the wait stuff in already?
<tcn> not now
<HickServ> wow im actually putting my os stuff in a project folder
<HickServ> how organized!!!
<Fare> hey, a guy who thinks that OOP stinks mustn't be all that bad!
<Fare> even though he chooses GeoCities...
04:40pm
<tcn> SCSI controllers can't handle drivers over 8GB? huh?
<tcn> s/drivers/drives/
<AlonzoTG> =0
<Fare> tcn: uh? you mean IDE...
<Fare> tcn: (and even then, they can, with the latestestest IDE update)
<HickServ> well then that won't work
<HickServ> *sarcasm*
<HickServ> yeah all my drivers are atleast 9 gigs
<tcn> Fare: I saw this in the specs for an adaptec 2940 scsi contorller
<Tril> DRIVES maybe?
<Tril> would't it be cool if NOT gates created free electricity , like they do in Rocky's Boots?
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<HickServ> hehehe
<HickServ> logic would save the day and the planet
<Fare> tcn: maybe old SCSI can't, either
<Fare> but that surprises me quite
<tcn> I thought the 2940 series was good for huge servers.. 50GB type things :)
<Fare> rocky's boots??? what's that?
<tcn> for $200+ they better be good
* Fare/#Tunes remembers people trying to design reversible computers, and how they related quantum computers...
<HickServ> Däs Bootdisk
* Fare/#Tunes has put all backupable config files in ~/etc ...
04:50pm
<Fare> now maybe time to put ~/etc under CVS???
* HickServ/#tunes has put a floppy disk in his pants
<Fare> so what's in your pants is floppy? I heard they preferred it harder...
<HickServ> :(
<HickServ> no
<HickServ> i be hard
<_QZ> hmm, maybe ill go work on brix
<_QZ> havnet worked on it in forever
<water> birx?
<HickServ> send me ye api qz!!!
<water> brix?
<abi> brix is a free, not open source, persistent multithreaded multi-user OO computing environment located at http://www.qzx.com/brix
<Fare> water!!!!!!!!
<water> what?
<HickServ> abi?
<abi> yes, HickServ?
<Fare> how are you doing?
<HickServ> water?
<abi> wish i knew, hickserv
<HickServ> abi: water needs to be educated
<HickServ> uh
<HickServ> damn
<water> fare: umm. ok. i'm working on the prototype and more papers.
<HickServ> i won't screw with it
<HickServ> i need pr0n
<water> i'm looking up the brix page now.
<Fare> HS: that's what usenet is for...
* Fare/#Tunes is reminded about half a dozen papers, and as many programs, that he oughta write...
<water> fare: what's the right way to apply to a conference?
<tcn> well, I'm gonna log off
<Fare> water: be in a lab, and ask for lab funding
<tcn> see ya all
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason)
<Fare> else, be a student, and pay student price
<water> fare: does that exclude the amateur, such as myself?
<Fare> no, but you're better when affiliated to a university
<Fare> the price difference on a conference is usually well worth the inscription fee of the university
<Fare> and since there is no age limit to the university...
<water> inscription fee?
<water> (i'm 21 - age is no problem)
<Tril> The very last episode of DS9 is on tonight don't forget to watch it everyone!
<water> no thanks
<HickServ> im 14 so age is uasually a problem
<Fare> in France, you pay a small (around $300) fee for inscription to a university per year
<_QZ> Tril: really?
<water> i don't know of a similar process in the US.
<Fare> HS: maybe you can qualify as a student, anyway
<Fare> final solution: come to the conference not as an official attendee
<hcf> Tril: i saw it last saturday morning :P
<HickServ> i'll affiliate maself wiht my junior high school
05:00pm
<Fare> you won't be at official lunches, but you might be tolerated at the conference itself
<_QZ> hcf: faggot
<Fare> oh, and of course, initial solution: be part of those who organize the conference
<water> fare: ok. is there anything that my paper would need (aside from topic specialization) to be accepted?
<Fare> (it's the opposite: you're at the lunches, but you don't get to listen much)
<Fare> water: from my limited previous experience, a paper requires being in the tone of the conference to be accepted
<HickServ> hey qz which of your docs is the best for disk drive crap?
<Fare> and of course, it's much easier if you have friends, teachers, etc, in the program committee :)
<Fare> tcn: still here?
<_QZ> floppy?
<hcf> Fare: he log'd off
<HickServ> i had an idea
<Fare> water: papers are usually 20-30 pages max, and need be very focused
<water> so, i would have no problems with my style particular style of speech or formatting conventions? what about my terminology?
<HickServ> why don't i just shift the bits in the ivt to have 8 more bits so they can have idt entrys?
-:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tril[sloth.wcug.wwu.edu])
<water> (my wording is slightly non-standard, due to self-education)
<Fare> water: seeing that my own style was not accepted, I fear you'll have problems with yours
<water> oh
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-:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ
<Fare> Tril?
<abi> it has been said that Tril is a security person. for tunes, though ,not unix ;)
<HickServ> Fare?
<abi> i think Fare is sometimes looking at another screen and interruptible with a beep (/msg Fare ^G) or at http://www.tunes.org/~fare/
<Tril> what
<Fare> HS: what IVT?
<abi> it has been said that IVT is 1024 bytes, the idt can be upto 2048 bytes
<water> how can i obtain recognition or discuss my ideas with people, then?
<HickServ> that should exolain it
<Fare> water: if you know of a particular conference that interests you, contact people
<HickServ> i want to keep bios interrupts and i thought i could just make em instead of 1234:1234, 00001234:00001234
<Fare> water: once you've contacted people, and had them proofread your paper, you have better odds of getting accepted
<Fare> going to the conference and meeting people can be some help for latter years, too
<water> fare: what other methods are there of getting people's attention other than paper submission?
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<Fare> HS: realmode and protmode interrupt routines are very different, anyway
<Tril> Hick: You need to talk to malificus.. he wanted to extend the memory addressability too
<HickServ> ok
<Fare> water: paper submission is good. It's just not going to work easily at first
<HickServ> mabye i'll just remap the bios ones
<Fare> water: contacting people by email helps, too
<water> ok
<HickServ> i just wanted to keep em standard though
<HickServ> i could remap them exactly how they were
<Fare> HS: you can use real-mode interrupts w/ V86 mode, or switch back between real- and protected- modes dynamically (ouch)
<HickServ> no
<HickServ> too slow
<HickServ> i will and shall not
<Fare> HS: it's interesting, if only to be able to use VESA 1.x and similar stuff
<HickServ> why can't i just extend the entrys in the idt when i switch to pmode?
05:10pm
<Fare> HS: you can, if you also decompile the 16-bit routines, and recompile them in 32-bit mode ;->
<HickServ> oh my
<HickServ> i might as well remap them
<Fare> plus you must translate their static data accordingly
<Fare> water: where are you currently? both physically and intellectually?
<_ruiner_> I wish I had a punchcard reader
<HickServ> uh
<HickServ> what are you on some old fortran terminal?
* Fare/#Tunes punches ruiner
<water> physically: the peninsula across the pugett sound from Seattle, WA.
<Fare> hey, that's very near Tril!
<water> intellectually: i've educated myself to about grad-level mathematics and applied, plus CS, EE, ME, ...
<water> fare: yes, we've met in person.
<HickServ> well you live about two states away form me
<HickServ> my brother is gonna be pissed with all the ink i've been using
<Fare> water: will you stay on ground from now on, or will you be sailing again?
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<Fare> HS: ink?
<Nemesis> Sup
<_ruiner_> hi nemesis
<HickServ> for the printer
-:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tril[sloth.wcug.wwu.edu])
-:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving)
<HickServ> i wish i had a teletype though
<HickServ> things would go faster
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<Nemesis> What's the topic today?
<Fare> printer???
<Fare> iS: ippelstein!
-:- Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES
-:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ
<HickServ> uh
<HickServ> english got you down?
<water> fare: i have two deployments this year for a month, then in 1.5 years, another few deployments. soon after,i will be a civilian.
<_ruiner_> topic is.....
<iStormy> Fare: gakuk!
<HickServ> topic?
<abi> topic is TUNES http:www.tunes.org
<HickServ> abi: crack?
<abi> somebody said crack was the only thing that spreads faster than Java
<Nemesis> lol, Java is a little slow
<Fare> water: what do you expect from your navy experience?
<Fare> Nem: it *spreads* fast. It *runs* slow.
<Nemesis> very true
<water> fare: i'm in the navy to earn money for college and pick up technical education.
05:20pm
<Fare> Java is a vast crookery!
<water> (experience, too)
<Fare> is the experience interesting?
<HickServ> java?
<abi> i think java is slow
<_ruiner_> lol abi
<Nemesis> Depends what platform your running it on
<Nemesis> Warp is the fastest platform for Java
<water> it's mostly a tortuous waste of time for all concerned.
<_ruiner_> java has its uses
-:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Read error to Tril[sloth.wcug.wwu.edu]: Connection reset by peer)
<Nemesis> Java is actually used in more devices than CE
<_ruiner_> like if you're in the middle of a migration from say.....win95 to os/2 v4
<Fare> Java is sure faster on a PIII-500 than on an Apple ][.
<Fare> who's crazy enough to migrate *TO* OS/2????
<Nemesis> Java doesn't produce any memory dumps either
<Fare> my company is desperately trying to migrate *FROM* OS/2
<Nemesis> it's the cleanest code you can write
<Fare> Nemesis: LISP did that since 1958
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-:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (changing servers)
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<water> hey all. tril and i were discussing our implementations and their development. any objections to the discussion moving to the channel?
<HickServ> lisp is the second oldest language around
<Fare> Tril: got problems?
<Fare> abi: LISP?
<abi> LISP is, like, simply perfect
<_ruiner_> I kinda like os/2
<HickServ> forth?
<abi> forth is at http://www.forth.org or a nice user interface
<Tril_> i appear to be experiencing network lossage
<HickServ> c?
<abi> hmmm... c is the category whose objects are valid observable types through which we look at programs, and whose arrows are interactions we are allowed to do on programs
<Nemesis> how close is it to machine language?
<_ruiner_> I just wish there was more software for it
<Fare> Tril: welcome to the club!
<HickServ> Lengua?
>>> Tril_ [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] requested PING 928369545 64125 from #TUNES
-:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (kernel panic)
<Fare> o ?
<abi> o is the symbol for zero?
-:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes
<Fare> a ?
<HickServ> ah he doesn't have my programming lanuage in his datebase
<Fare> abi: a?
<abi> wish i knew, fare
<HickServ> qz?
<abi> qz is the two least used letters of the alphabet
<Tril_> Hickserv: You know, you can ask abi questions privately
<Tril_> Hickserv: please do, and stop cluttering the channel
-:- Tril_ is now known as Tril
<HickServ> :(
>>> Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] requested PING 928369594 256911 from #TUNES
* HickServ/#tunes goes off to cry
* Fare/#Tunes uncries HickServ
<_ruiner_> !crying
* HickServ/#tunes *hug* Fare
<Tril> Water: OK so what's your question?
<Nemesis> ruiner, you running 95?
<HickServ> k i've printed out all of qz's pic crap
<water> well, i wanted to make the generalization of scripting (think APIs) into the space of homo-iconic languages like self or lisp.
<_QZ> HickServ: pic crap?
<_ruiner_> yeah
<_ruiner_> I can't stand 98
<hcf> homo-iconic?
<Nemesis> yeah, me either
<Tril> well, an API and a user interface need to be unified. In my model, they are the same.
<water> that way, if i provide handles for VM functionality in the ArrowWorld, then i will have a mechanism for automation (and thereby, reflection).
<_ruiner_> and this way I get to play games
<Nemesis> very true
<water> hcf: homoiconic = only one system abstraction type
<Fare> yeah, I think the concept of "homo-iconic" is flawed
<Fare> there's something behind, that would be interestingly formalized
<Fare> but as is, it's unusable.
<water> fare: why? would homo-iconism depend on the abstraction chosen?
* Tril/#TUNES is gone for a sec..brb
<Fare> because the notion of "type" is very relative
* HickServ/#tunes is writing a super low varient of forth
<water> well, i believe that type IS relative.
<Fare> you can always take a coarser or finer "type" system on any underlying algebra
05:30pm
<water> or one that crosscuts another.
<_ruiner_> brb
<Fare> so you can consider just any system as "homo-iconic" by your definition, but just refusing to see any type difference between objects
<Fare> or you can make a very smooth system hetero-iconinc, by choosing a finer "type" system
<Nemesis> Most of you guys programmers?
<water> well, i was thinking of benefits from a formalized abstraction, so that the system constructions would be easier to analyze and create.
<Fare> I'm convinced that there is an interesting intuition behind, but it must be formalized precisely (in a way that allows for formal logical reasoning) before to become usable.
<water> nemesis: yes, amateur.
<water> i agree, fare.
<Nemesis> I got bored with programming
<Nemesis> I just love messing with OS's now
<Fare> a very similar problem that I came up with was the notion of a "reflective" language, or even that of a "universal" language
<water> nemesis: have you tried smalltalk?
<Fare> (hum, still must write on the list about that)
<Fare> water: squeak is good
<Nemesis> nope
<water> fare: agreed, of course. :)
<Nemesis> Cobol, C, C++, VB and Basic I've programmed in
<Fare> I hate the smalltalk syntax, and things about strings being used to represent somehow structured data, but the general design is kind of ok.
-:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tril[sloth.wcug.wwu.edu])
<HickServ> oooo cobol
<water> nemesis: there's much better out there.
<Fare> I prefer LISP.
<Nemesis> actually, I enjoyed Cobol the best
<HickServ> i like forth
<Nemesis> harder to make mistakes
<HickServ> heh
<Fare> Nemesis: maybe you'd enjoy programming the ENIAC
<water> lisp doesn't have the right environment for exploration.
<Fare> Nemesis: or even Babbage's machine.
<Nemesis> lol
<Nemesis> Cobol will always he around
<Nemesis> it will never die
<Fare> water: stk?
<Fare> water: real lisp machines (with their GUI) are said to be great. Only they cost quite *a lot*
<HickServ> sad
<HickServ> fortran isn't bad
<water> fare: exactly. expense.
<Fare> Macintosh CommonLISP is said to be not so bad, either,
<HickServ> but cobol is a disease
<Fare> and has a "shareware" 15-minutes-at-a-time or so version.
<Nemesis> yeah, but mainframes are still a very important role in computers now.
<water> code exploration via a vt100 terminal is NOT my idea of useful.
<Nemesis> vt100 is the most secure system you can find
<Nemesis> any mainframe is very secure
<Nemesis> it's not like you can drop a server like NT
<water> bleh
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[ppp-tnt-174.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer)
<Nemesis> I must admit, NT is a nice product, but it's no Netware or Warp.
<HickServ> how do you telnet into an nt machine?
<Fare> NT, nice??????????
* _ruiner_/#tunes didn't like NT
<Nemesis> you have to start a telnet service for NT
<_ruiner_> can't get any direct access to the hardware
05:40pm
<Nemesis> everything goes through hal
<HickServ> i wanna hax0r my school's nt server
<Fare> ruiner: of course you can! switch that "power" button "off"...
<_ruiner_> lol
<_ruiner_> then stick in a boot disk for linux right?
<HickServ> yeah
<Fare> or rather, a boot HD
<Fare> (for they may bios-protect the floppy)
<Nemesis> Linux is powerful, but not for the desktop
<_ruiner_> have any of you used ghost?
<Fare> ghost?
<HickServ> all these hardware texts are from 1994 and crap
<_ruiner_> we used it at the state for installs
<Nemesis> yeah, I've used ghosting products
<HickServ> i hope the dma hasn't changed much
<_ruiner_> pretty sweet huh?
<Nemesis> I think it's a waste of time
<Fare> Nemesis: linux is for the desktop, sure
<Fare> the problem is that X is bloated
<Nemesis> I agree
<Nemesis> a lack of standards too
<Fare> it standardized lots of low-level crap, and little of many useful high-level things
<Fare> that's because they moved it from LISP to C
<Nemesis> ruiner, ghosting for installs is kewl, but too much money 
<Fare> (the X design demonstrates that it has been originally prototyped with LISP)
<Fare> what's ghost*?
<Nemesis> ghost products are....
<Nemesis> it's an image of a computer
<Nemesis> when the image changes at the node level, the server pushes out a new image to the node.
-:- Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES
-:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ
<Nemesis> does that make sence Fare?
<Tril> sorry my network wasn't working.. oh looks like water left.
<Tril> I'm going home..
* Tril/#TUNES  is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<Fare> Nemesis: very easy to do with linux
<Fare> Nemesis: rdist is very old. Now there is rsync
<_ruiner_> fare, its a program that copies hard drive to hard drive.....sector by sector
<Fare> ruiner: sector-by-sector sucks
<Nemesis> yeah, but it's fast
<_ruiner_> its way cool when it takes 5 minutes to set up a new machine that would normally take an hour
<_ruiner_> and ghost had a sid walker or something that would change the unique id for each machine too
<_ruiner_> its a very handy program
<Nemesis> ghost is mainly used to keep computers identical
<Fare> although I know someone who does kind of that: he has a small linux manager partition on each computer of a classroom network, and every night, it's used to wipe the DOS/Win partition back to what the server says, so that pupils can't install crap on it
<Nemesis> when all you need to do it lock down the desktop
<Fare> easy to do under linux, and inexpensive
<Nemesis> very true
<Nemesis> but I prefer Zenworks
<Nemesis> lock down the desktop so you can't mess with a computer
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<Fare> unix login does the same, btw
<water> yeah! i'm back
<Fare> water: wb!
05:50pm
<Nemesis> Yeah, but you're not seeing unix like you are Windows X
<Fare> are there interesting people, at least, in the navy?
<Fare> Nemesis: uh?
<water> a very few. one i know was on the NSA's most wanted list for a time.
<Nemesis> Unix isn't as popular as MS OS's
<HickServ> BuenOS?
<abi> i think BuenOS is almost as cool and Mr. Clean
<Fare> NSA's most wanted list?
<Nemesis> BuenOS?
<abi> i heard BuenOS was almost as cool and Mr. Clean
<Fare> like, he committed high-treason?
<water> he was a very good hacker (cracker).
!lackey.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT brin.openprojects.net 8005 from aphzen
<_ruiner_> lol
<hcf> HickServ: use /msg abi ...
<water> we discuss assembly on the apple ][
<_ruiner_> whatever happened to those guys who took control of a british satelite?
<water> as well as forth
<Fare> I had GraForth ][ for the Apple ][
<water> i still have it : on an emulator
* water/#tunes has emulators for most of his favorite hardware platforms.
!varley.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT brin.openprojects.net 8002 from aphzen
<HickServ> i was informing all of how cool BuenOS wil be
!varley.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT brin.openprojects.net 8005 from aphzen
<Nemesis> What is BuenOS?
<abi> hmmm... BuenOS is almost as cool and Mr. Clean
<HickServ> um
<HickServ> it's my OS im making
<HickServ> it probably won't be that cool
<Nemesis> what's so impressive about it?
<HickServ> nothing is as cool as Mr. Clean :)
<Nemesis> lol
<Nemesis> okay
<HickServ> well i have an idea (not fully developed) for a kernel
<_ruiner_> the hacker's manifesto is cooler than mr clean
<HickServ> but i don't fully understand the idea myself yet
<HickServ> no!
<HickServ> not really
<HickServ> The Mentor!!!
<_ruiner_> yep
<Nemesis> Nobody can convnince me that any other OS other than BeOS is the best
<_ruiner_> I'm impressed hick
<HickServ> yeah
<HickServ> i used to want to be a l33t hax0r
<_ruiner_> check out aegis
<HickServ> i ended up doing jack shit
<_ruiner_> heh heh
<HickServ> im just an idle phone phreak now
<Fare> BeOS is based on C++, ergo lame
<water> ditto
<_ruiner_> oh come on fare
<HickServ> it's super multi-threading
<Nemesis> It's the most power commercial OS out there
<_ruiner_> your personal war against C++ has to come to an end!
<HickServ> hahaha
<water> it still requires a close-knit team of well-paid programmers.
<Nemesis> not even Linux can beat the performance and stability
<Fare> multithreading is lame
<HickServ> oh god
<Fare> it's a poor substitute for a real concurrent programming language
<HickServ> please fare be practical
<Fare> multithreading in a low-level language like C/C++ is not only lame, it's suicide guaranteed
<Nemesis> you have to multithread otherwise you can't multitask
<HickServ> vice versa
<Fare> Erlang manages things much better, for instance
<Fare> you can have tens of thousands of "threads" eaisly
<Nemesis> we're talking commerical OS's
<HickServ> uh is qz's disk_drives.txt anygood?
<_ruiner_> well....its written by qz
<_ruiner_> sooooo.....
<_ruiner_> lol
<HickServ> no
<_QZ> where is that lying sack of shit tril at?
<Fare> commercial != proprietary
<HickServ> qz is it any good?
<_ruiner_> what did he lie about?
<Fare> RedHat is a much better commercial OS
<_QZ> ds9 being on tonight
06:00pm
<Fare> gotta go sleep
<HickServ> qz!!!
<Fare> bye!
<Nemesis> RedHat is a punk to install
<HickServ> uh
<Fare> RedHat is *much* easier than Win9X to install
<_ruiner_> red hat is for the kids who can't deal with install problems
<HickServ> it's rather easy to install i think
<_QZ> Nemesis: a punk? does that mean easy to u?
<HickServ> qz: tell me
<Nemesis> lol
<Nemesis> it was hard to for me to install
<Fare> took me 9 hours to install Win9X on this box
<Nemesis> and I hate that cylinder problem that Linux has
<Fare> redhat installed like a charm
<_ruiner_> SLACKWARE ALL THE WAY!
<Fare> Nem: it's a BIOS problem, not a linux problem
<_QZ> Nemesis: what did u have problems answering the questions about what timezone u lived in?
<_ruiner_> abi: slackware?
<abi> _ruiner_: i haven't a clue
<_ruiner_> damn
<_ruiner_> anybody know when the new version of slack comes out?
<_ruiner_> lay of qz
* Fare/#Tunes is away (rrrrr.....zzzzzz)
<water> well, i can see that i would waste my time to discuss arrows here.
<Nemesis> Linux should  have a way to drive around that error
<HickServ> for the love of god qz answer me
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<HickServ> !!!
<water> beholder: hi
<HickServ> hey beholder have you been through qz's hardware texts?
<Beholder> Hello 
<abi> hey, Beholder
<Beholder> Hick:  Nope not yet
<Nemesis> I admint that Linux is very powerful on the server level, but not workstation
<HickServ> damn
<HickServ> qz is ignoring me :(
<Beholder> Hick:  He's probably away
<Nemesis> but sorry, samba server isn't going to replace NT or Netware
<HickServ> no he was talking here
<Beholder> Nem:  Hmm... Samba works really well I found
<HickServ> i need to print out a file but i don't know how good it is
<HickServ> i'll just print this out
<Nemesis> I still can't get it to authenticate correctly
<Nemesis> besides, it's slow too
<Nemesis> I think it was wise of Caldera to join forces with Novell
<Beholder> Nem:  I got it working fine, and it was very fast on my setup... (as good as an NT box, for a couple of machines)... Hmm... what kernel are you using?  (might have something to do with it)
<Nemesis> I give Caldera more credit than redhat
<HickServ> they took dr-dos!!!
<Nemesis> lol, sure did
<water> you know, you fellows should update the review list.
<Nemesis> 2.2.5 kernel
<Beholder> Hey Brian, how are you tonight?
<Beholder> Nem:  Hmm... I've only ever ran it on the 2.0.36 kernel
<water> trying to resolve issues with my arrows in squeak implementation, and working on research and paper-writing.
<Beholder> wat:  How goes the papers?  
-:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tril[sloth.wcug.wwu.edu])
<water> beh: i've almost closed out the original, routing some open questions to the conclusion.
06:10pm
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<Nemesis> you're quiet ruiner
<_ruiner_> sorry
<_ruiner_> eating
<HickServ> ouch
<HickServ> tummy cancer
<Beholder> wat: Good :)  So what do you think of the other subprojects related to tunes? (just out of curiosity)
<water> beh: general opinion? or do you have issues you'd like opinions on?
<Beholder> beh:  General opinion.  
<Beholder> wat: General opinion... talking to myself again ;)
<water> beh: well, i think that a lot of the talkers with opinions about existing systems should work on the review (together).
<water> beh: as for the hll etc, i think that there is much to add to refine our requirements and possible directions for development.
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving)
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<Beholder> wat:  So you think the system itself is not defined enough?
<water> beh: definitely.  the lll could even be downplayed to choosing an existing programming environment (a la review).
<water> beh: i still don't understand what tunes is NOT, for example.
<Beholder> wat: Me either... but I'm still new here ;)
<water> well, most people can't tell the difference between Tunes and Scheme, for example.
<Beholder> wat:  I believe the next generation of OS's will have to be based on an HLL (API) type system... I don't think it can work from the bottom up  :)
<water> you definitely don't get the idea that there is a difference from Fare's words.
<Beholder> wat: I'm not familair with Scheme, is it a meta programming language?
06:20pm
<water> beh: it's lisp with lexical scoping and some object-oriented extensions.
<water> the lexical scoping part (block structure) really irks me.
<Beholder> wat:  I guess in this world, nothing can truly be perfect :)   Hmm... so a solid definiton of Tunes could help the project greatly?  
<water> sure, but we really don't have the conceptual building blocks on the site where they need to be (and they don't have to be arrows, either).
<water> the discussion of aspects and related ideas (like meta-object composition, monads, categories, and arrows) would definitely help.
>>> hcf [nef@me-portland-us346.javanet.com] requested PING 928373275 from TUNES
<water> beh: are you still there?
<Beholder> wat: I think some of thoese would have to be defined to others also :)    (sorry I'm in a few chat windows :)
<water> right.
<water> but those definitions are mostly available from other sites.
06:30pm
<water> we could extend 'review' to include computing concepts in general.
<Beholder> wat:  I think then we should have some sort of primer.  I guess it's hard to express ideas with a group of such diversity
<HickServ> i must go
<HickServ> bye
<Beholder> hick: bye :)
<hcf> tunes needs to govern the definitions of concepts
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (blarg)
<hcf> not just link to other sites
<water> well, sure, but the other sites would provide additional background for the reader.
<water> local definitions are essential, of course.
<Beholder> wat:  I've tried to update some things on the site before, but it was mostly cosmetic and organizational.  I wonder if an FAQ sent out to people in the M-list would be sufficient?
<water> hmm... that 'review of computing concepts' might just work. what do you think?
<water> what would the FAQ address specifically?
<Beholder> wat:  I guess a general overview of the concept of Tunes, how the project works, and some definitions would work, but it would have to be written by someone who understands the ideas quite well
<hcf> tcn was working on a faq
<Beholder> hcf:  Did he ever finish it?
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-174.tscnet.net])
<hcf> a draft is on his tunes hp
<Beholder> hcf:  Hmm... what about you, what do you think the project needs?  FAQ a good idea?
<hcf> faq, yes
<hcf> and task delegation
<hcf> the ppl to task ratio isnt good
<hcf> thus the tasks dont get done
<hcf> also, more advertising, usenet, etc
06:40pm
<hcf> and more public discussion, as on usenet
<Beholder> Yes, we are quite isolated on Openprojects and a private m-list :)  
<hcf> that subproject/task status list we talked about b4
<Beholder> I wonder if we can get a Usenet group?
<hcf> probly alt.os.tunes
<hcf> but it'd probly better if we used comp.os.misc and/or comp.os.research
<hcf> wider audience
<Beholder> hcf:  Comp.os.misc is pretty dead, we could use that one  :)
<hcf> also some proglang ng, like comp.lang.misc
<hcf> and perhaps comp.objects and comp.theory
<Beholder> Hmm... wish my newsgroup server carried all thoese... :)
<Beholder> So what do you do?
<hcf> deja
-:- water [water@ppp-tnt-174.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<hcf> what do i do?
<water> finally, i'm back
<Beholder> water:  Get disconnected? Running Windows?  :)
<hcf> water: do you read usenet? if so, which groups?
<water> yes and no , respectively. that is, i've not used the news for a year at least.
<Beholder> wat:  We're wondering about making the project more public, and maybe having some discussions on usenet
<hcf> just wondering which groups someone like you would follow
<water> i didn't know that there were people like me in the world.  i'm a fairly odd person.
<hcf> exactly, we want odd ppl
<water> ok
<Beholder> wat:  Just more ideas brought to the group
<water> well, news isn't as interactive as irc, but then so is the mailing list.
<water> i honestly don't think that the usenet is very interesting overall.
<Beholder> wat:  Well, I think I've only ever seen about 10% of the tunes members in #Tunes, when I think there are well over 100 people on the list...  IRC is good, but not many take advantage of it
<water> ok
06:50pm
<Beholder> But then again, I advertised for UniOS on usenet, and didn't get much of a response....
<water> right.
<hcf> water: that's the point, tunes discussion would perhaps a glaring brilliance of interesting talk
<hcf> s/would/on usenet would be/
<hcf> Beholder: dont just advertise, discuss
<Beholder> hcf:  That's what I mean by advertising :)  
<hcf> oic
<hcf> Beholder: i saw a post of yours, perhaps doing replies to other's stuff would be good
<Beholder> hcf:  On Usenet?
<hcf> yeah
<Beholder> Hmm... I thought I replied to a few people.  Probably not enough though :) 
<hcf> i guess i just didnt see it
<water> brb... one minute
<Beholder> I rember a few poeple asking about OO OS's...  I pointed them here
<hcf> yeah, i saw that one
<hcf> pointed them to unios
<Beholder> Actually, I get quite a few in my personal mail also... people seeing the pages, etc.  The OS Opinion Article generated about 12 messages.
<Beholder> hcf:  UniOS people end up on Tunes anyways :)
<hcf> i realize
<hcf> also, need more ppl on #tunes
<water> well, how could a discussion that large sustain itself?
<Beholder> I think so.  We get some interesting ones though. 
<water> in my experience, if more than five people are active per channel, then the discussion deteriorates rapidly.
<water> active=doing more than asking questions.
07:00pm
<hcf> yes, in most
<Beholder> So what would be the best way for everyone to communicate?
<water> so, to accomodate more people, there could be an agreed discussion format.
<water> like rules for OPs carriers and such.
<hcf> water: we sort of did that at one point
<water> and definitely some topics rules.
<hcf> we had a "meeting"
<water> what did you do?
<hcf> be bickered and solved nothing
<water> darn. what was the meeting format?
<Beholder> hcf:  I couldn't attend that meeting, but I heard it was not productive
<hcf> not much of a "format", or if there was the host or whomever didnt carry it out
<hcf> also, core showed up for like the first time
<hcf> so many ppl went off and chatted w/ him
<hcf> thus killing the meeting
<water> well, those might have been negative factors
<water> what if the policy were strongly enforced?
<hcf> what i wanted and didnt happen, was for decissions to be made
<water> if we made two channels, one for general chat, and another for serious meetings (with the tunes server taking minutes), then both interests could be served.
<hcf> tunes ppl tend to resist enforced rules
<Beholder> The group dynamics make it hard for any decision to be made... I tried to update the web page once... that crashed an burned...
<water> so, how do we influence them?
<water> ( i try every day to do so)
<hcf> r u saying we should become a tunes cabal controling the inner workings of the project ;)
<water> tunes is against committees, but bootstrapping a project like this might require us to lower our standards.
<Beholder> I was "hired" for that purpose... decisions, steering, control, but it doesn't work.  People will do as they wish, and seem to only wish to work on their own projects.  Or they are hurting for time...
<hcf> working on their own projects is fine
<hcf> but theres just no current way of knowing their status
07:10pm
<Beholder> The root project seems to have very little momentum.  Actually of all the projects it takes the most flack.  
<hcf> except for personal mail or irc happenstance
<Beholder> I guess people who do the projects would have to be responsible for a web page on the Tunes site, that they kept up  (good idea?)
<water> but arrow is supposed to address the root project.  and yet most are alienated by my work.
<Beholder> wat:  Intimidated... is a better word
<water> ok. that's true.
<hcf> Beholder: not good idea
<hcf> we need a consistent web site
<water> i agree about consistency, which is why i won't include arrows in the site unless others (consensus) agree.
<Beholder> wat:  I believe your work is very interesting, probably bordering on genius... but, I guess not everyone see's it that way...
<water> i don't think, however, that even with that difference aside, i can create tunes documentation consistent with fare's or tril's.
<hcf> fare and tril talk "meta-programming" the site w/ templates, styles and such for plug in content, and making the glossary and review db based
<Beholder> Some are pushing for a single project.... I really can't decide which one would be THE Tunes...  They all address different areas...
<hcf> but its not happening
<Beholder> I tried to push for that too, but it's very time consuming to implement...  
<hcf> right
<hcf> so we other ppl to implement it
<hcf> besides those who r already doing too much
<hcf> s/ppl/ppl that r capable/
<Beholder> Know anyone who can do it?  I haven't learned DB's in Linux yet....
<Beholder> ... Or PHP3 (I think that's the one they wish to use)
07:20pm
<water> i think that that direction is unnecessary at this point.
<hcf> how so?
<water> answering questions about tunes so that tunes is further specified would seem to help much more.
<water> that could be done with html alone.
<hcf> yeah, a less structured/overall solution
<hcf> also
<water> we also have the task to educate the group.
<Beholder> So it comes down to the definition of the project again.  This is the same problem at UniOS at the moment :)
<water> the progress of the education is appalling right now.
<water> i don't mean academic formalization either. simply describing ideas and their implications in detail would be enough.
<Beholder> wat:  Would you be able to make some posts introducing some of the terminology you use (and your interpretation of it) in the m-list?
<water> yes, but i'd need some guidelines from others.
<hcf> it seems to me
<hcf> that a lot of detail is shared
<water> 'shared detail' ?  what do you mean?
<hcf> but on medium on which its not accessable etc
<hcf> as in, irc and the m-list
<hcf> instead of putting up web pages
<water> ok, not collected on the site. i agree.
<hcf> ppl dont follow thru on the details given on irc/mlist
<water> perhaps if the site map were easier to organize.  for example...
<_QZ> uhh anyone know howto use midnight commander?
<Beholder> wat:  You're not the only one who doesn't like the site map ;)  But it can't change... some people were very very vocal about it before
<water> we could make the glossary into a 'review of concepts'.  i'm thinking about mimicking the relative success of the review project in the other projects by factoring out ideas gained from others.
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<water> people wouldn't care about something like the glossary changing, would they?
07:30pm
<Beholder> wat:  For guidlines for your definitions, why not start with something simple like your own definition of persistence, or processing, or even a summary of what an Arrow is.  Just simple things, maybe one per post or something.
<Beholder> make it simple
<Beholder> The glossary would probably be fine... just nothing about the site layout :)
<water> ok.  i think that i can handle that.
<water> well, if you structured the glossary, then that IS a layout change.
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<water> welcome back, hcf
<hcf> isp timeout
<Beholder> I mean things like Where the links are located, the sub division and such... most agree that they don't like the page, but there is no proposed idea for change that was accpeted
<Beholder> hcf:  Damn... bad ISP :)
<hcf> <water> perhaps if the site map were easier to organize.  for example...
<water> i could create html for each definition, a la Wiki
<hcf> <hcf> we need better todo lists
<hcf> <hcf> that we point ppl to if their not busy
<hcf> <hcf> esp the glossary, needs a lot of work
<water> each term in the definition would be linked to the corresponding definition.  it would be like principia cybernetica.
* hcf/#tunes reads the log
<Beholder> wat:  So each definition is it's own HTML page?
<water> sure, PCP uses this idea, and their site docs are fairly extensible.
<water> (PCP= Princip Cyber)
<Beholder> wat:  That might work :)
<hcf> fare,tril,me tend to agree
<hcf> glos as 1 entry per 1 file and all entries in 1 file
<hcf> in both text and html
<Beholder> So I guess it comes down to who wishes to do it. 
<water> i volunteer, but i don't have any experience with Wiki.
<Beholder> Neither do I... nor am I qualified for doing definitions :) heheh... 
<Beholder> Ever seen the UniOS terminology page... it's terrible :)
<hcf> same as Beholder for me
<water> well, i can definitely do the definitions.
<water> as long as someone can help me with the software.
<Beholder> wat:  Maybe if you write them out, I can get tril to enter them?
<hcf> we need non-bias definitions, then reviews and links
<water> sure, that seems reasonable.
<water> i think that i can outdo the pcp, anyway.
<hcf> whats pcp use for sw?
07:40pm
<water> principia cybernetica is nothing but a collection of theory based on terms in cybernetics.  it's not complete and far from perfect.
<water> but the format is wiki-style, and quite manageable.
<Beholder> wat:  Sounds good.  Maybe next post you can start with the expanded set of definitions.  And the collection, when completed (or during completion) can be put into wiki-style by tril or fare
<water> ok. the question is where to start.  this effort may require re-defining old terms,
<Beholder> wat: Hmm... I think it would be a good place to start with the Arrow's doc's... (terms within) then maybe move on to the list (starting from the begining)
<water> ok
<water> btw.. here's the PCP address: http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/
<hcf> Beholder: hav u talked to the TAO dude much? besides by usenet
07:50pm
<Beholder> hcf: Yep, but he seems to have dissapeared?  I told him I'd post his doc on the UniOS page, and he was very happy about it, but wanted to do a little revision, but never got back to me
<hcf> yet another os devel'er bites the dust :(
<water> hmm
<Beholder> hcf:  He was very happy to have someone acknolege his effort...  I was sure he was going to become a very active member... 
<hcf> osdev'ers need a persistent connection to one another
<Beholder> Yes they do.  On their own they wither :)
<hcf> along w/ a central/mirrored resource collection
<water> like the tunes site?
<hcf> tunes site should be tunes specific
<water> but it reviews so much
<hcf> we should hav a semi-separate osdev site
<hcf> too much of tunes' content is biased
<hcf> but, because it exists
<hcf> and is useful to ppl
<hcf> they flock to it
<hcf> as in how a large percentage of os project sites link to tunes' glossary and/or review pages
>>> hcf [nef@me-portland-us106.javanet.com] requested PING 928378875 from TUNES
08:00pm
<water> i think that tunes' glossary could be freed of its bias rather easily.
<Beholder> Well, I must go now... I gotta work tomorrow.  Keep discussing this subject, and mail me with you results
<hcf> it just hasnt happned yet
<water> ok, beh.
<water> hcf: well, this wiki review port of the glossary could do that very thing.
<hcf> Beholder: u seem to have a coordination team now, how's it feel?
<Beholder> hcf:  It's good :) 
<Beholder> hcf:  The project is too large for one person :)
<water> well, the effort just has to be divided correctly.
<water> (the appropriate ontology chosen.)
<Beholder> wat:  Well, if we can start on the stuff we decided on tonight, we'll be off in the right direction :)  
<water> ok. i can post to the list immmediately, but after discussing the initial entries with hcf at least.
<Beholder> ok
<Beholder> enjoyed chatting, see both of you later :)
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<water> bye
<water> so, where do you think these terms should start?
<water> (specifically)
<hcf> will u be redoing every existing entry?
<water> well, eventually yes.
08:10pm
<hcf> how about Abstraction
<water> i'll start tonight by posting a proposal to the group with some sample terms.
<water> abstraction?
<hcf> shall assume any education level of our audience besides knowing basic english?
<water> ok, but i'd like to be able to include various points of view on vague terms like abstraction.
<water> those aspects of the definition should be linked to the terms' definitions that characterize them (eventually).
<water> like how different groups think about the word 'abstraction'.
<water> i'd like to generalize over those for Tunes itself.
<hcf> will u be keeping a list of terms used but not explained, or defining each as used?
<water> i suppose that the former will be necessary
<water> we'll keep that in a html node named 'undefined' or something.
<water> or just keep empty nodes for each unexplained term.
<water> i'd have to keep a list for myself, to help track those nodes.
<hcf> i'd prefer a list
<water> ok, i'll keep it a list (in a single node on the wiki).
08:20pm
<water> are there other issues that we should address yet?
<water> i can do the html conversion myself, but as for wiki, i don't know.
<hcf> i'm not familiar w/ wiki
<water> neither am i, which means that i should seek help, either from tril or fare or the wiki web site.
<hcf> http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASC/INDEXASC.html looks good
<water> yes
<hcf> tho, i prefer the way that foldoc does the links for previous and next entries
08:30pm
<water> which way is that?
<hcf> prev: term1, term2, ...  next: same
<hcf> # of terms based on space alloted and length of term
<water> oh, ok.
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<^Myrmidon> Howdy.
<hcf> hoy ^Myrmidon
<water> hello
08:40pm
<water> we're discussing some changes to the tunes glossary
<^Myrmidon> Groovy.
* ^Myrmidon/#tunes is away: (I'm such a country bumpkin, ahyuck.) [BX-MsgLog On]
<water> specifically, i'm going to try to build a new, more complete glossary using Wiki nodes for each definition and making it a part of the review subproject.
<water> oops.
08:50pm
* hcf/#tunes : away
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<lar1> hey
* iStormy/#Tunes listens to the old scsi churn.
<iStormy> it may be slow, but at least it's quiet  (c;
<lar1> Wasn't scsi always faster then ide?
<iStormy> not mine
<iStormy> old 1Gs
<iStormy> i suppose it's faster than old 1G eides
<iStormy> but they are half the speed of my 1.6G eide
<lar1> What are you using those small drives for?
* lar1/#tunes stares at his eternal ide 1 gb... <grin>
10:00pm
<iStormy> because i do not have the means to waste money on bigger ones.
<lar1> Ah
<iStormy> and it's just this year i got them...for the last 6 years i've had only a single 244m drive.  (c:
<lar1> How can you operate off that kind of disk space?
<iStormy> don't use x
<lar1> How do you live without X?
<iStormy> only things i missed were netscape and the gimp
<iStormy> plus the pretties
<lar1> What kind of computer do you run?
<iStormy> i had a 486-33 with 8mb ram and 244mb disk till 6 months or so ago
<iStormy> i got an old dual p133, 64mb ram, dual 1g scsis, adaptec 2940, 33.6k, crappy 15" monitor, for $425, and added a 1.6g eide and upped the ram to 98.
<lar1> What kind of stuff did you do on that 486 machine?
<iStormy> i ran it into the ground with 12 virtual terminals always running and logged in, mutt in one window, tin in another, irc in two more, lynx in two more
<iStormy> plenty fast for that, text mode is easy.
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<iStormy> it was utterly useless for anything to do with x
<lar1> so why did you get a new machine?
<iStormy> cause i wanted netscape
<_ruiner_> I want a few new machines
<lar1> Ahhh, you gave in to the calling of X
<_ruiner_> wanna set up a network
<iStormy> and all the pretty x stuff
<lar1> Do you run E?
10:10pm
<iStormy> and it took 90 minutse to compile the kernel
<iStormy> wmaker
<iStormy> had e for a few days this week, but it annoyed me
<_ruiner_> death to the blasphemer!
<lar1> how did it annoy you?
<_ruiner_> e is cool
<_QZ> i run E
<lar1> _QZ is alive!
<_ruiner_> don't let the fact that he talked fool you
<_ruiner_> he ain't alive
<lar1> heh
<iStormy> i want maximized windows to be on top of the dockapps, and it wouldn't let me
<_QZ> this is irc client AI talking
<iStormy> and it lagged switching windows
<_ruiner_> _qz: brix
<lar1> I got some qusetions for you, _QZ, but I forgot them...
<_ruiner_> lol
<iStormy> using clean theme, no faancies
<_ruiner_> kjasdfljsaljfsa
<_ruiner_> extreme 3d pisses me off
<_QZ> clean sucks, use shiny metal
<iStormy> shiny metal sucks, use clean
<lar1> But that was because you are running a p 133?
<_QZ> iStormy: do u have gnome?
<iStormy> lar1: no, it's because e is slow.  other managers have no trouble switching windows speedily for me
<iStormy> qz: nope
<iStormy> wife says i have to go to bed now
<lar1> I don't see the need for gnome
<_ruiner_> boooooo
<lar1> ok, g'night istormy
<_ruiner_> night stormy
-:- SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (iStormy has no reason)
<_QZ> i created a very nice gnome/gtk theme and also Xresoruces for netscape,rxvt,xplaycd,etc 
<_QZ> so they all look alike even tho they arent all gnome/gtk
<lar1> So how slow would E run on a p233 mmx?
<_QZ> E is fast, its gnome that is a freakin pig
<lar1> But gnome is not needed for E, right?
<_QZ> no
<_ruiner_> right
<_QZ> rasterman left redhat last week cuz redhat wants to remove all the theme stuff from E and make it look like windows 9x
<lar1> So why would I want gnome?
<_ruiner_> yeah
<_ruiner_> bastards
<lar1> RedHat is becoming more and more disliked methinks
<_ruiner_> he said it was a stifling atmosphere to work in or something
<_QZ> gnome adds icons on the desktop and a communications channel between gnome'ified programs
<_ruiner_> I like slackware myself
<_ruiner_> nobody else uses it though
<_QZ> the gnome desktop icons suck but the panel is nice
<lar1> So is running gnome really worth it?
<_QZ> u can click on the home directory desktop icon to open a windows-explorer like progran
<_ruiner_> depends on what your personal preferences are and what you'll want to do with it
<_QZ> there is tons of system configuration in the gui
<_QZ> if u dont like playin with text config files then gnome is ok
<lar1> So would you say gnome makes a os/2 like i nterface?
<_QZ> uhh
<lar1> Or not :)
<_QZ> u can write an E theme to make the windows look like os2 and u can write a gtk engine and theme to make the programs look like os2
10:20pm
<lar1> I'd accually rather not
<_QZ> they have several gtk engines to choose from and i think they are easy to write
<lar1> Do you think 2Mb of video ram is enough to do 24 bpp @ 800x600 virtual resolution of 1024x768?
-:- SignOff _water: #TUNES (Leaving)
<_QZ> uhh
<_QZ> u dont want virtual desktop
<lar1> why not? I love it!
<_QZ> E supports the normal paged desktop and multi-desktops
<_QZ> i have a 1600x1200 screen and then i have 3 screens across and 2 down
<lar1> but it can't scroll like a virtual res can it?
<_QZ> for a total of 6 screens each 1600x1200 in size
<_QZ> u can make it so the screen changes when u touch the edge with the mouse
<_QZ> i prefer to turn that off and use the ctrl-arrows to jump screens
<lar1> can a window be in the middle of 2 screens?
<_QZ> yes
<_QZ> u can have a window cover all screens
<_QZ> and the desktops in E are layered
<lar1> Is the window switch visible or is it fluid so it looks and feels like virtual res?
<_QZ> hold on
<lar1> ok
<_QZ> no
10:30pm
<_QZ> u can make them either flip immediately or u can make the windows slide off and on
<lar1> so virtual res is cooler, it gives you more space
<_QZ> so when u goto the screen to the right all the windows would slide off to the left and the new windows would slide in from the right
<_QZ> quite annoying
<_QZ> i prefer screen flipping
<_QZ> erase current screen and draw new screen
<lar1> hmm, ok
<_QZ> i have used the virtual desktop before in fvwm so i know what yer asking
<_QZ> oh wait
<lar1> ok, I'm gonna try this E thing out...
<_QZ> i think the x server does that
<lar1> yes it dows
<_QZ> so u can do it then
<lar1> but can 24bpp @ 800x600 virtual 1024x768 be done with 2Mb?
<_QZ> no
<_QZ> but u can do 16bit color
<lar1> 16 bpp?
<_QZ> 16bit will look just like 24bit but faster
<_ruiner_> jjaslkjfaslkjfaslkfdjsadf;lkjsadfljsadlkfjsaljsd
<lar1> is 16bpp 16.5 mil colors and 8bpp 256 colors?
<_ruiner_> I'm bored
<_QZ> no
<_QZ> 16bit is 64k colors
<_ruiner_> 2^16
<_QZ> 24bit is 16.7 mil
<lar1> ok, 64k is good enough
<lar1> hold on, I'm gonna try it
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (be righ back)
<_QZ> but u cant tell the diff between 16bit and 24bit
<_QZ> testing
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<lar1> Ok, cool this works
<_QZ> what E do u have?
<lar1> I hav fvwm95
<_QZ> oh yer doin the virtual desktop?
<_QZ> btw, fvwm95 SUCKS
<_QZ> really bad
<lar1> I know
<lar1> thats why I want to move to E
<_QZ> if u want X to look like windows then get E/gnome and use the clean/redmond95 themes
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10:40pm
<lar1> Noooo, fvwm95 is just what came with rh 5.1 and I am just now comfterble trying to switch to E
<_QZ> ehehhe
<lar1> so I need enlightenment-0.15.5.tar.gz
<lar1> and esound-0.2.8.tar.gz?
10:50pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0603
IRC log ended Thu Jun  3 00:00:01 1999