IRC log started Fri Jun 11 00:00:00 1999 jdl: language limits language limits you in ways that you cannot comprehend, because it defines you. language is a technology. it should not be proprietary, as it is today Perhaps... but there is still no instantaneous learning. [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0611 Language is proprietary? epistemics! epistemics = "knowing without the introduction of facts" is like instantaneous learning. language belongs to a cybernetic control structure based on addiction of human users. And anyway, I don't WANT to become an expert on CPU design. I WANT to be able to purchase a CPU from someone else. It allows me to spend my time on things I enjoy more. hgreffuler! it's a drug cartel (endorphines precisely) hgreffular = "Jim Little is master of all." you wouldn't be concerned about your time if unfamiliar things were so troubling to you I know how to create a newsreader, but I don't want to spend my time writing that, either. I've got better things to do. it wouldn't take so long if the system weren't fragmented! don't you get it? you can change the implicit factors in every argument!!! implcit factors like "it takes time to program". how? that's what tunes is about. answering that question. it's definitely what arrow is about. I don't think TUNES is going to change the laws of physics. :) It still takes time to do things... maybe programming would be faster (it's virtual) but manufacturing a CPU won't be. bullshit again TUNES is going to change the laws of physics? Wow! :) you don't realize how much you're de-sensitized to the infrastructure. god, you're such an idiot! * jdl/#tunes forgives water <> Perhaps you can help me understand what I'm missing. (i re-emphasize) <> <> <> <> <> Repeating it doesn't make it so. :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDD * water/#tunes bows to jdl's infinite wisdom. * jdl/#tunes nods graciously wow. it's so amazing to meet the person with the answers to Life, the Universe, and Everything!!! ? I don't think I've claimed to have any answers. I just question YOUR answers. 12:10am but you can't even try out my point of view for size. I don't understand your point of view. Help me understand it. you can't imagine a different software market system. or hardware, for that matter. Sure I can. When did we talk about software markets? when we discussed programming vs using it shapes those markets My point: Not everybody has the time to learn EVERYTHING. Not everybody wants to. And even those that know how to do something sometimes prefer not to. You seem to be advocating that everybody do everything from first principles. "has the time"? why do you have to have time to learn? To cook dinner, would I have to find an egg, hatch it, kill the chicken, grow the herbs, build my oven, mine for natural gas, machine some pots, and carve some spoons? why don't you have to "have time" to play a Nintendo? jdl: you're using a static ontology, i see!! Everything takes time, even playing Nintendo. water: You haven't comprehended murskly hurfensteder, I see!! you still use a static ontology. everything can be done in a different way. the words you use limit your mind. Perhaps, but not as I understand physics. Everything takes time. And I still don't want to manufacture my own CPU's. Not only does that take time, it takes a rather expensive factory. Plus, I don't want to do it. I'm not interested in compiler design. s/compiler design/CPU design/ blah, blah,blah more wisdom from the closed mind My mind is wide open... I'm still here, listening to you. I haven't insulted you. But you have yet to explain what you're talking about. I don't understand how things can be done in no time. your mind sits in its place, and doesn't assume ever that there's a different way to do the same thing. That's a pretty big assumption to make. it's big for YOU. it's small for me. for me, it's a matter of asking the right question. It's a small assumption for you to assume that my mind sits in its place? That's not an assumption, that's an insult. no, it's a small assumption that there's a different way to do things. yes, it's an insult. your mind is the weakest creative part of your body. I didn't say there wasn't a different way to do 'things.' 12:20am You don't even know me... why do you think that? jdl: it's written all over your words. I'm not the one who's disguising poor arguments with insults. you can't even imagine the tunes goals. you don't think they're worth pursuing I didn't say that... you've implied it all along!! I just don't understand your interpretation of TUNES' goals. In fact, when I first ran across TUNES (quite a long time ago, now), I was struck by how similar its goals were to mine (of the time). i can't believe i'm wasting my time on this topic. oh, yeah, that's right. everyone with vague utopian goals is attracted by tunes. tunes is like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers. If you're wasting you're time, it's only because you're not communicating your thoughts clearly. I'm listening, trying to understand you, but you're spending more time insulting me than explaining yourself. especially ones with vague goals. like you! Where have I insulted you? by assuming anyhting about arrow! assuming something about Arrow is an insult to you? Actually, I thought I understood it pretty well. Not in depth, perhaps, but the overall picture, anyway. ask tril sometime what arrow is about. hell, ask fare even. Why ask Tril when I can talk to the creator directly? What is arrow about? what is Zen about? you may as well ask that. i refuse to give you a dogmatic response. I'm not asking for a dogmatic response. I'm hoping for an enlightened, clear response. which is just dogma in disguise, or if not, you will use it that way. ? Where have I been dogmatic? And besides, you're the one responding. "enlightenment" and "clarity" are RELATIVE. ontological relativism!! Clarity in communication is binary. It takes effort on the part of the communicator as well as the communicatee. Since I am not capable of understanding your message as is, you need to communicate in a way I can understand. complete bullshit. clarity depends on two people having the exact same vocabulary, which is impossible. your entire sensory experience would have to have been identical to mine. 12:30am i've already told you that formal mathematics is a poor explainer of the arrow system. (which makes sense, since mathematics is its own political coup) Actually, I don't think you did. But that's okay. I'm not using formality in Prism either... I personally don't think it's useful for most real-world programming. Does it bother you that I compare Prism to Arrow? jdl: once again, you misunderstand jdl: it couldn't bother me more. I feel that the comparison is the root of your hostility. Why does it bother you? because it only serves to make both our systems more vague. it weakens both our arguments How? it discourages us from refining our thoughts. i could just say that "arrow is like prism, only better". people would ask why, and i could not tell them, unless we verbally discuss the differences. I disagree... our goals are different, so both systems are equally needed. I think the core is similar, but what must be added (frame for you, DSL framework for me) is much different quitr comparing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 god, you're so completely useless for getting any formal work done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 but on the other hand, you don't have to say Arrow is like Prism. I don't say Prism is like Arrow, although I do occasionally say that they're similar in some ways. they're not similar! I'm sorry you're upset. If you'd like to postpone this conversation so you can get some work done, that's okay with me. i don't care about similarities, i want to know what precisely makes them different!!!!!!!!!!!!!! otherwise, we have no defense against those who accuse us of re-inventing the wheel. can you prove that your concepts are not duplicates of someone else's? can you convince someone with an appropriate education that your ideas are original? I think that's very clear: you want to formalize ontology into Arrow itself, by creating frames. That's something I don't think is possible (at least, not to have all ontologies as frames), so I don't attempt it in Prism. a frame is a graph! any collection of arrows is a graph! My ideas are not entirely original. DSL's have been around for ages. So have interpreters. We all stand on the shoulders of those before us. I thought a frame was a graph which represented an ontology? * water/#tunes vomits on the floor. * jdl/#tunes cleans up the floor :) 12:40am no, a frame is the context for an arrow logic, which i reify as a graph. But on the other hand, I do think the ways in which I am applying these old ideas is original. i don't think your ideas are original at all. you just mis-apply formal terms. How so? that's why it's insulting to me to compare prism to arrow. jdl: models are objects a la c++ just ask tril No, they're not. I think I understand Prism better than Tril does. :) He thinks of everything in terms of objects and types because that's the project he's working on. meta-models are some sort of bullshit vague idea you cooked up because you couldn't think of anything better. just what the hell are they? jdl: PROVE that they're not equivalent. A metamodel is a model of the concept of how a particular set of models is interpreted. In Prism, they consist of a set of Prism models and a natural language description of how each model is interpreted. interpreted to whom???? Not equivalent to what? to a machine? to a user? to a "platonic reality"? to what? Interpreted by the observer. Each model represents a concept. The metamodel describes how to determine which concept the model represents. not equivalent to a c++ class. what is a concept? better yet, what ISN'T a concept? Natural language definition. ...um, nothing. your words are too vague to derive meaning from, then. Others have been able to understand me. your ideas are un-original. i spent three years working on arrow concepts before i even thought about joining tunes. But I published mine first :) are the 'others' educated? jdl: don't be an ass. jdl: i'll bet you haven't learned about a tenth of the ideas that fare's looked into. or that i have looked into, for that matter. Probably not. That's okay. I happy with the way I've spent my time. no, it's not. you're not exposed to ideas that might even teach you something. you don't learn. you can't imagine better than Prism because you don't want to. you don't stratch your mind in search of answers. stretch 12:50am Like I said, Prism's goals are different than yours. Prism seems to be well on track to meet its goals, so I'm very happy with it. well, then stay out of tunes, please. I thought that's where this was leading. :) your project is no more useful to tunes than java is. In your opinion. what progress of tunes is due to you?? What progress of TUNES is due to you? several review entries, lots of discussion, the arrow formalism, relativism of ontologies, ... the stimulation of thought on categories, visual programmings, ... okay, fair enough. review on types of proof theories, various calculi, the dynamic logics, ... fixed-point calculus, challenging others on their positions, ... looking closely at and analyzing prism, pliant, tml, ... If you can convince the major participants of the TUNES mailing list (yourself, Fare, Tril, tcn) that I should go, I shall. you can stay, just don't try to influence people's goals. I'm not. and don't critique their ideas for tunes, Why not? it's just not welcome if your goals are different even fare withholds his opinion most of the time. Okay... I haven't critiqued anybody's ideas anyway. i'm the most bullheaded on the subject jdl: what about mine?? I don't recall critiquing them. I've tried to understand them, sure. I think your work is very impressive, actually. I hope you're successful, because if you are, it will likely be a major breakthrough in semantics as well as programming. i've attracted attention from several professors of logic! how can you compare arrow to prism, and then say something like that????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 01:00am Because comparing the two doesn't mean I think they're identical. screw this. i've wasted more than enough time with you. -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-64.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] okay... see you later! * jdl/#tunes sighs Anybody else still here? -:- SignOff jdl: #TUNES (Leaving) 01:10am -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-241.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-241.tscnet.net]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us124.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fare has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: www.tunes.org || flamewar water vs jdl -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-205-208.s208.tnt4.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes * Fare/#Tunes is back sorry 07:30am -:- mat [haxx@cx225733-a.wwck1.ri.home.com] has joined #tunes >>> mat [haxx@cx225733-a.wwck1.ri.home.com] requested VERSION from #tunes -:- SignOff mat: #TUNES ([BX] Gary Coleman uses BitchX. Whatchoo talkin bout foo?) mat: yes? -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup006.nni.com] has joined #tunes 08:30am -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup006.nni.com] has left #tunes [] -:- smkl [sami@CMXL.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes sami! what about your exams? well, no results yet are they ended? are there oral examinations for those who passed the written stage? yes. i had chemistry and math exams monday and tuesday Fare: no 09:20am -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[209-122-205-208.s208.tnt4.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-205-228.s228.tnt4.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (brb, GPF!!!) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-224-211.s211.tnt6.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.210] has joined #Tunes Oooooh, a flamewar! I love a good flamewar! :) =) -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[200.224.105.210]) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.239] has joined #Tunes 11:30am Fare, I'm, uh, /trying/ to read LambdaND :) By the way, what's with the fonts in the PDF version? It was so unreadable that I had to download it all over again in PostScript. >>> Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.239] requested PING 929126111 from TUNES pong! oh, I guess I will delete the PDF, then did you try by print or by screen-viewing? Screen viewing (Acrobat Reader 4.0) yeah, I had that behavior, too I'll try print under acrobat. I would, but I have no printer. The font list tells me it's using "custom" fonts. it's standard TeX fonts get the .ps version then and view it with gv printing from acrobat is ok I'm way ahead of you :) but MacGS is much clumsier than Acrobat Reader... use gv under linux linux exists for pmacs, too! 11:40am maybe gv exists for MockAss... I know that all too well. It happens that I have an iMac, and last time I checked, stable USB support wouldn't be available until LinuxPPC R5... which was promised for early January. ...hello?... yup I admit I've been waiting for R5 a long time so as to install linux on my mom's pbook Well, I'm friends with Jason Haas, and he said it was supposed to be out by LinuxExpo, but that didn't happen. Maybe you can get YDL/CS... sure. Or R5beta 11:50am so can you (possibly with a custom kernel from somewhere else on the net for USB) or maybe get debian/ppc Thing is, I already pre-ordered R5 in December, so I'm not going to spend any more money. And I need a stable OS for work... can't have my I/O randomly failing on me. Oh. "Big announcement due today (June 11)." at linuxppc.com Kaufman: purchase a $1000 linux box... Fare, I often considering doing so. But definitely not a Big Brother^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HIntel box, maybe an Alpha or an outdated SPARCbook. AMD AMD or get a netwinder... Nah, AMD's are too similar to Intel's. I want to stay in a platform where I can retain my feeling of being an outcast :) get an Alpha or a MIPS (shun the evil Sparcen) or an ARM SPARCen are evil? How come? Wow. Speak of the devil. Looks like R5 is shipping today. register windows are evil. sun is evil. 12:00pm It's very hard to find Alpha boxen in Brazil. Digital doesn't have a very large presence here. Kaufmann: buy in the states maybe contact Jecel -- he may make a box for you :) Even worse, import taxes are ridiculous. For a $1000 box it would be something like $500-$800 Who's Jecel? Computer Stupidities has new stuff! 12:10pm Well, I'll be off then. Peace! -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein) 12:20pm -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1000.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-029.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes hoy beh om Hey hcf :) hcf: Are you good with C++? beh: not really hcf: NP then :) i have a book, but refuse to learn it, its disgusting hcf: I learned using C, so C++ is a world of new niceties :) kludged niceties hcf... and some wierd stuff thrown in for confusion :) 01:20pm hcf: What do you prefer for development? depends on the job there is NO single hammer hcf: :) hcf: Better question: What langs do you use? nothing right now * hcf/#tunes is away. 01:30pm * smkl/#tunes uses ocaml ocaml? i think ocaml is object oriented functional programming language at http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/ -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[216-164-224-211.s211.tnt6.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-231-208.s462.tnt7.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes 01:40pm -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-029.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes [] -:- NetSplit: koontz.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [03:03pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [koontz.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: koontz.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes -:- ServerMode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by clarke.openprojects.net -:- jdl [jiml@ultra1.inconnect.com] has joined #tunes set beep_when_away Oops... om mani padme hum.... 03:20pm * jdl/#tunes is away (/msg me if you want me) * Fare/#Tunes is back -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250092.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes tee-see-en! hey om good thing I published Retro why so? * jdl/#tunes is back keep it proprietary and charge $10000000 for source access then all you need is find one fish ...and give me some of your profits :) now the copyright & GPL is pretty well cemented when you work for someone, you have to sign over some rights.. and your new employer would do something about it? but not to prior work 03:30pm As I told someone recently, GPL is a guarantee for users and developers alike this company's contract is reasonable no one will be deprived from one's own work Fare: good point Fare: you said something a couple days ago about Prism that I wanted to follow up on... if you're not sick of hearing about Prism, that is :) that's ok, although I have a 90' speech to workout for sunday... jdl: sometimes, we need much more elaborate structures than can be simply described by bits and streams ... can you elaborate? Hello? heh * jdl/#tunes shrugs 03:40pm jdl: have you ever used Coq? have you learnt, say, lambda-calculus? have you studied data structures? trees? balanced trees? hash-tables? graphs? graphs are N-arrows, I think. thanks, abi bitte Fare Fare: no, looked at it, yes well, then you must know that bit streams are a *very inconvenient* way to handle advanced datastructures much much too low-level Two points: 1) They're not bit streams. They're _Bit (fundamental unit of info) and _Stream & _Map (two different ways of organizing info I'm sure that a trip in formal logic (using a tool like Coq, NuPrl, HOL, or whatever you can find help for in a nearby university) will do you much good what's Map? still, bit is very low-level encoding a three-way choice with that is awful 2) I'm not necessarily trying to do advanced data structures then -2) you're not being interesting _Map is an indexed collection of information (_Stream is an _ordered_ collection of info) -- info being any mix of _Bit, _Stream, or _Map atoms if you make interesting things horribly difficult, then Prism is not the way to go. good point about the three-way choice. you should *really* take a look at Coq-like inductive data structures that really gives a lot of insight on programming I really like people who try to change the world I'm like that myself I'll take a look at it. but having good original ideas is no excuse for not learning good established ideas. But one of the reasons I selected _Bit, _Stream, and _Map is that it seemed to be the minimal set that would allow me to represent complex concepts agreed bonez is dead. =0 I'd add: it's a shame, because you end up wasting your time and talent instead of making great things jdl: if you want to be minimal, bit and stream are quite enough (see turing machines about that!) Fare: agreed... I've thought about combining _Stream & _Map. it's not interesting to be minimalist for the sake of it 03:50pm moreover, it's already been done oh, one could do it for the sheer fun of it but the result won't be a tool useful for everyone Well, complex units can be built from the minimalist atoms. People are more likely to deal with higher-level components most of the time. But the more core components I build into the system, the more problems I will have if I made a mistake. jdl: maybe you should read Guy L. Steele's paper about "growing a language" it's at least available from Philip Wadler's page. I'm well aware of my limitations (and my strengths) -- that's why extensibility and minimal unchangable core is important Fare: sounds interesting, I'm searching for it minimal with regards to what? if that's with regard to formal manipulations, then bit&stream might not be what you need Fare: possibly so... depends what you mean by formal manipulations. The atoms are intended to represent concepts. (BTW, Google is an excellent search engine -- http://www.google.com formal manipulations: proving correctness properties about your system, about transformations, etc The only "Growing a Language" reference I could find was a video, not a paper. Where is Philip Wadler's page? http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/wadler/index.html Fare: formality isn't my goal -- arguably, it should be, but it's out of my depth arguably, it should be. smkl: thanks and believe me, it will make things easier for the rest of your goals, too 04:00pm I have a couple of problems with formality in programming: 1) It doesn't prove you're building the right program (nothing can) wadler? well, wadler is Philip Wadler, a brightest researcher in computer science at http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/wadler/index.html 2) It introduces loads of extra complexity jdl: 1) then what? it still helps 2) no, it simplifies things a lot I think it's very appropriate for mission/life-critical systems, but not for ordinary systems. But admittedly I don't know a lot about it, so I could be talking through my hat :) remember: even if your computer won't make formal reasonings about programs, other humans will have to. 1) True... just saying that formality doesn't solve everything noone pretended it would Not trying to be confrontational here, but why aren't more programs written in a formal language if it simplifies so much? DO NOT CONFUSE THE END OF PROBLEMS WITH THE BEGINNING OF SOLUTIONS granted, shouldn't have mentioned #1 jdl: because people gain money with complexity? Fare: consider myself chastened. After, Prism is about reducing accidental difficulty (ending problems) but it doesn't promise easy solutions jdl: because there is an initial overhead? initial overhead -- that makes sense You refer to initial overhead of learning formal methods, right? for learning them, but also for implementing the infrastructure and standardizing this infrastructure formal languages? Or the requirement for everything down to the CPU to be formalized for complete proofs? why everything? No reason, I just remember hearing that somewhere. do not confuse BEING ABLE TO PROVE with HAVING TO PROVE Once again, formalism is out of my depth. I'd like to *eventually* prove everything down to the CPU Ok no one would require that it be done *beforehand* abi: formal methods? jdl: wish i knew jdl: see Review/Languages.html about that 04:10pm Okay, I'll check it out. But my ultimate goal with Prism is to make programming easier, more accessible, so I'm not sure if formality is appropriate. But perhaps it is, under the covers. (and feel free to contribute) If so, probably the best I can do is give the ability for it to be added... time is hard to come by these days. you know, I think you have a lot of potential, for good or bad design alike (That's another reason extensibility is so important)