IRC log started Wed Jul 14 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0714 -:- XeF4 [xef4@wbrady.wasilla.ptialaska.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff XeF4: #TUNES (bbl) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us745.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- abo [d96-abo@brown01.nada.kth.se] has joined #tunes -:- norman [user2304@mail.4js.ste.net] has joined #tunes -:- norman [user2304@mail.4js.ste.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us745.javanet.com]) -:- NetSplit: lackey.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [07:20am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [lackey.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: lackey.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Mr_Wrong [seanl@adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #Tunes -:- eStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes -:- s_r [sr@phila-dialup486.nni.com] has joined #tunes i gotta put windowing back in my script...i'm tired of having 3 ir windows open 08:40am -:- SignOff Mr_Wrong: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Mr_Wrong[adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net]) stormy: mirc script? bx hmm Deb1an? yes hmm...i wonder if i still have the windowing part of my script...i took it out a long time ago why not just program a client from scratch? too much typing i've wanted to before i have a lot to learn before i can but i want to i'd use python people on #BeOS are talking about be source code and how some was pirated :) like the folks on #beos would know that would be awesome... to get beos source code 09:00am petros? petros? hmph...i don't think i have any archives going back that far something they talk about in #BeOS stormy can you get me beos source code :P i can't even get me beos binaries heh it pisses me off... i know people have pirated the source tree i'll never get it though found a 1997 archive, but i had already ripped out the windowing or hadn't yet added it? * eStormy/#Tunes growls. Stormy why not just get someone else's script and rip it from there? cause the other scripts suck (c: 09:10am Stormy are you writing an OS? i'm dreaming up an os stormos what are your ideas for an OS? earth operating environment i have 2800 lines of random thoughts in 2 dozen text files, no unified vision yet. wow i wanna come up with something completely new and fresh, but that's kinda hard. my brain is already stuck thinking in certain patterns i feel the same way your name is unique, you should live up to its unique nature :P would your OS be multiuser? yes reflective? multi-user, multi-tasking, multi-processing, secure, orthag persist, distributed, etc. etc. i have been thinking of dynrec in an OS have you thought of dynrec? rec = recompiling? yes if so, yes the OS modifies itself in runtime i had this much about it written: files need to automatically compile themselves when executed i dunno about the new-kernel idea mentioned in here yesterday what idea mentioned here yesterday? about booting new kernels without rebooting nice in concept, i just dunno how it would work. well you would separate the kernel into "lock chambers" where it would be isolated so it doesn't overwrite what it is executing or "frames" 09:20am estormy do you want the OS to be truly object-oriented? * eStormy/#Tunes feels tao-flashbacks coming on... ? tao? well, tao is an expression of the Water in comp.os.misc do you practice tao? there is a 401-article thread on an os called tao what is Taos? 400 of the posts are flames because the guy wanted his os to be object-oriented, but he failed to mention his definition oof object-oriented. (c; tao is at http://www8.pair.com/mnajtiv/tao.html estormy do you see any OSes on the front that have much promise? beos is the most visible one. i don't know enough about the current stages of anything olse i want something as good as BeOS but opensource -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-253-198.s198.tnt8.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@CMIV.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes beos has different priorities (multimedia), but i don't really see anything new about it. (i haven't used it) beos is nothing revolutionary just really fast i guess you could sum up my basic goals: a new graphicial unix (retaining a powerful command-line) with no resemblance to unix. lotsa small tools to be combined 09:30am afk smkl have you seen the TaOS posts on comp.os.misc? -:- SignOff eStormy: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eStormy[rain.futuresouth.com]) 09:40am hmm .. i don't read comp.os.misc wait a bit -:- eStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes stormy: if i execute a "rep" instruction (like rep movsb or whatever), do interrupts still interrupt the instruction? i don't knem asm know perhaps you can use cli 09:50am TaoS sounds a lot like TUNEs 10:00am * Fare/#Tunes is back fare how many cycles does a "rep movsb" take? depends on the CPU if i had an interrupt, say clock interrupt rep movsb is generally a bad idea but on the 8088, tho execute a schedule() would the interrupt interrupt a rep mosvb or let it continues contine continue s_r: the Pentiums and others have an internal clock whose value you can time and then interrupt after that instruction is finished? see Michael Abrash's books for more info and/or tutorials on the web start from the pointers at the end of the Asm-HOWTO (latest edition) mind that caches, TLBs, etc, will affect the results greatly... (and thus of course data alignment with word/cache-line/page/pagetable/etc) 10:20am it is said that on plain pentiums (not earlier or latter designs), it is best using the FPU for moving large chunks of memory will interrupts interrupt instructions right in the middle of their execution or will it wait for them to finish? you mean rep movsb? any instruction... well, since rep movsX is a tail-recursive instruction, it may be interrupted in the middle, by saving the current registers, and pointing to it as next instruction ok it is tail-recursive... for other instructions, the hardware must either roll back or roll forward, so that you are always between two instructions when a trap/interrupt occurs -:- binEng [Anders@dialup211-1-53.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes if it weren't tail recursive, that'd be a problem (actually, you might have had short atomic reversible prefix/postfix to the tail-recursive part) 10:30am -:- tmf [s720@pissemaur.ii.uib.no] has joined #tunes tmf! hi scandinavian night, tonight! how's that? i wonder why everytime i have an mp3 playing, whenever i use a scroll-down bar, the mp3 is warped for the time i click the scroll bar down (in windows 95) is it because the scroll bar moving rapidly down needs a rep instructino instruction ? no seems like you have a slow computer, eh? it's because win95 thinks the scroll bar is a high-priority task ok (maybe because it runs inside the win95 kernel) s_r: it's a effect, a feature - be greatefull! bE: even on a fast computer, the scroll bar will eat loads of CPU yep - great stuff, this windows hmm that's a good way to look at that... a feature! Fare: not on computers as fast as mine ;) PIII-600 ? Fare: Alpha 700 um win95 doesn't work on Alpha 700, except perhaps in Bochs windows NT does though well not exactly. But I can type very fast on 'em ;) and it's not fast! i was saying that bineng might have an alpha fare: is there any way to make the scroll bar movement eat less CPU? just use a rep instruction to copy pixels? maybe with a quad PIII-600 and a RAID cluster of U3W-SCSI, Win95 might have barely acceptable speed but there isn't much difference in how X handles scroll bars and how win95 handles scrollbars isn't scrolling done by the video card? s_r: again, rep movsX is a bad idea. Use library instructions for bcopy() and suches, that will hopefully be optimized for your CPU s_r: yes, there is a big difference -- scheduling i wonder how bcopy() does it bE: who knows, with win95!? :) bE: bill gates could tell you, but then, he'd have to kill you maybe all output is being routed thru Redmond? :D fare: how does bcopy() copy it? does it use rep *? 10:40am s_r: just decompile it or read the sources note: the linux kernel has its own versions of it, that may be better than the versions in the libc... * s_r/#tunes looks at VSTa bcopy.S Will the fact that a system is _open_ jeapordize security? ( sorry, slight topic distraction :) .align 4, 0x90 movl 0x10(%esp),%edi what does the .align statement mean? what does 0x10(%esp) mean? (esp+0x10)?? align: locate next instruction at address divisable by N s_r: RTFM! i knew you'd say that WATFM! M-x info g as read the assembly HOWTO! howto? err where * Fare/#Tunes hits s_r with a truckload of intel manuals ahh intel * Fare/#Tunes hits s_r with a HOWTO compendium I think there is a point in trying and failing a bit on your own before understanding other peoples assembler i have one of those s_r: get a more recent version of the asm howto than printed HOWTOs! hey, where's abi!? abi: abi? hmmm... i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik or an Artificial Idiot or braindead or a crack addict infoslut or stubborn abi: HOWTOs? HOWTOs are at http://metalab.unc.edu/LDP/HOWTO/ abi is an infoslut???? 10:50am -:- s_r [sr@phila-dialup486.nni.com] has left #tunes [] I'm reading the document on Tao. Tao? hmmm... Tao is an expression of the Water tmf: URL? IS IT possible to have an open AND secure system? http://www8.pair.com/mnajtiv/tao.html I mean, isn't "security" in itself the restriction of access? tmf: sure security is not paranoia to be sure of something, you needn't close your eyes and cover your ears to prevent someone from convincing you that the thing isn't true! no, but you eventually end up having to "protect" certain things from users or programs sure. So there will be programs that "would like" to be able to alter or view things - what is the natrual thing to do when a request for altering something is refused due to security? MU tmf: search for W7 on Review/VMs.html ok, I will. 11:00am The thing is that in TOOL, the natrual thing ( least coding solution ) would be to just give the object that modifies its own personal object, so that it can keep on reflecting (:)) without violating security. I believe Abadi has written a good paper in a recent book on the topic read the W7 paper and be enlightened! tmf: beware!! haven't you followed the thread on usenet over tao? no I'm just reading about it now tmf: the author is little more than a moron and the paper is pretty much useless, apart from acting as an example of how not to do/think don't waste your time on it ok :) so I should take more notice of the disection of Tao than tao itself :) That's true for many things the usenet discussion opened up my eyes. that text contains no more useful info that "viruses should not be possible to make" I noticed that too. How would viruses be impossible to make? bE: did you read the W7 paper? tmf: go read it, NOW! w7? no, what's that? -:- Kenn [cpe2@1Cust55.tnt3.tampa.fl.da.uu.net] has joined #Tunes the semantics of a language provide functionality the syntax provides usability ( The thing is that I'm thinking through the mapping of TOOL to asm and the comunication of asm with TOOL and vice versa, and these nice things keep comming up :) TOOl? Kenn: hi! hello Fare TOOL is TMF's Object system on top of TML what is TML? i think TML is a rewriting thingie, and TOOL is just an extention of that ( terms like 'object' defined ) rewriting thingie? abi: no, TML is string-rewrite system by TMF, who has implemented TOOL on top of it fare: no idea * eStormy/#Tunes fires up twin mp3 encoders on a hard drive of .wavs. TOOL is a useless inevitable extensiOn Of computing Linguistics:) 11:10am computing linguistics? I needed an 'L', ok ok tmf: have you seen Maude or CafeOBJ3? what is the nature of the obsession with recursive acronyms? tmf: you absolutely *must* see Maude and learn it is it a psychosis? what's good about it? K: it's a recognition sign between hackers K: and a hommage to recursion, the mother of computer science OK: Okay is oKay tmf: Maude is what TML should have been so Fare, how is progress on your scheme evaluator? And what is that? tmf: rewrite system of graphs, rather than of strings Kenn: not much 4 days left to finish an article for popl Maude sounds like Brian's Arrow system is it similar? Kenn: not AT ALL what is the utility of using graphs? Maude? Maude is at http://maude.csl.sri.com/ or based on re-write logic. sorta like TML, but much simpler to understand Maude is also based on well-understood, well-formalized theory okay, Fare. I sure as hell didn't think so! :) Maude is also reflective okay, Fare. is Maude intelligent too? FOO! Fare, I have a question for you. If syntax is only important in the context in which it is used then shouldn't the semantics of a language be defined so as to be contextually extensible, providing not any particular semantics, but a meta-semantics? Maude has alot of operators and syntax and stuff, that are hardly orthogonal and extensible. I am not talking about Maude Sure, but it has the problem that you point to. what problem? hmmm... problem is you don't have a clue! who? Kenn: yes and no Kenn: there should be a framework to define extended semantics but it should also be possible to make it clear what semantics you're using for a piece of code why not just make the language the framework and just provide a default semantics exactly, by specification 11:20am Kenn: the HLL should precisely be that think about persistence: if you want orthogonal persistence, somewhere something must still explicitly manage objects How do you go about defining semantics prior to semantics? instead of defining semantics specifically, define it generally There are no semantics to define anything from. generally or specifically but there are things that all semantics have in common like contexts of evaluation YES - BUT WHAT ???? every language evaluates expressions in a context Kenn: I'm not sure what problem you want to pinpoint EXACTLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the problem is I cannot do low-level programming in typical high-level languages Kenn, add 'terms' to your model and volia - you have a meta translator ! what are terms? word, like '+' or 'object' or 'create a new term' for example term as in terminology Kenn: Tunes needn't be typical but how do i escape my model? hcf: around? Since you now have a meta translator, you can "send messages" to other contexts, like assembler, or an interpreter. how important is persistence? is it fundamental to the HLL semantics? Kenn: most important why? Kenn: because it means that you can make persistent assumptions Kenn: did you read my paper on metaprogramming? Kenn: if you deepen the complexity argument, Fare: I read your paper on non-determinism, reflection and the lambda calculus I'm just thinking about what the HLL should do you see that a certain class of "universal" languages (including FORTH and LISP but not C) are maximally efficient in terms of incremental development how can i alter the evaluation of expressions in LISP without writing an evaluator? but even then, you get a horrible computation-time behavior if the system is not persistent I understand why persistence is useful, but how is it fundamental? Persistence is what allows the system to not recompute everything from scratch as the system evolves. but what about the contexts in which persistence is unwanted? which transforms a linear incremental cost into a constant incremental cost 11:30am Kenn: if you're superuser, you have access at multiple "levels" of your system. Kenn: and can access persistenc infrastructure manually if you like Kenn, an object never outlives its context. why can't i do it without being superuser? tmf: exactly Kenn: LISP provides features so that you don't need rewrite all of an evaluator from scratch to alter expressions tmf: garbage collection is meant for that Kenn: ever heard about security? yes Kenn: besides, security is not just for humans. It's also to allow the system to safely reason about itself okay have you heard of aspect-oriented programming? if things can change in your back, you can make no assumption, hence, no advanced metaprogramming Kenn: sure Kenn: re-read my http://tunes.org/~fare/articles/ll99/index.en.html any taker to write the Scheme compiler? Fare: I'd write it maybe recruit someone on comp.lang.lisp or comp.lang.scheme? but I have not finished SICP Kenn: it's not such a hurry so then what are you doing? Kenn: are you doing all the exercises? Fare: yes writing an article, with the hope of submitting it to popl what is pop1 abi: popl? somebody said popl was at http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~reps/popl00/ Fare: the TUNES HLL will have an implicit operating system but how is the operating system internal to the HLL to allow reflection? The statement is correct, but can you repeat the question? how can I manipulate the OS within the HLL? Build the system out of the building blocks that it defines. but what if I want to use different blocks? like bricks? or stones A different terminology? yes Then you need to define what the new terminology means in terms of the old. There is no magic. what if you can't you're fucked and have to start all over ! 11:40am okay. how is migration different from meta-translation? Kenn: Linux is written in C. How can you manipulate Linux from Linux? Fare: is the Scheme compiler for use on Retro? Kenn: it doesn't exist yet It's not a problem to guarantee that you can represent one terminology in terms of another - the problem is that you may need to "add stuff" into the new terminology in order for it to work. -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( <k!14>) but when it does, yes, I intend to try put it on Retro Fare: well, if we only use C, can we manipulate every part of it? i.e. not using inlined asm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[209-122-253-198.s198.tnt8.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) Kenn: no, I wanted to show that there was no problem with manipulating a system from itself Kenn: I don't mean that Linux does it in the bestest possible way reflection? i heard reflection was a property of a system that can refer to itself and manipulate its state or rough on my brain For instance, linux requires you to reboot and loose all process state so as to modify the kernel LISP is _much_ easier to manipulate than C but Linux still has axiomatic code axiomatic? you mean imperative, perhaps? fixed must be accepted fundamental on TUNES, you could replace components on the fly because there will be an interface for it okay, so I can dynamically update the garbage collection algorithms? look this interface is the subject of my article Kenn: sure a meta-object protocol? Kenn: if the system has the right interface, you can change the GC algorithm (although this may still be a slow operation) (not something you'd do everyday) (unless you like that kind of thing) (sure) call it a MOP if you like calling things MOP sure confers them some hype value and can you manipulate the interface itself? is there a meta-interface? what do you call meta-i*f*? There appears to be a compromise between how complicated the compilation on something is and how often the you need to recompile it. something that manipulates the interface (cleanly) tmf: sure the interface is contextual right? tmf: Linux forces a static compromise on you tmf: Tunes cannot remove the compromise, but allows you to dynamically adapt it to tailor your needs speaking of Linux, I like Windows95 better contextual? Kenn: the things I do on linux, I cannot dream of ever doing them on win95 In TOOL, it may prove efficient to use a minimalistic compilation scheme ( i.e. object footprint only represent state and not structure ) ... meaning some things can be altered in some contexts and not in others win95 is an OS by morons, for morons and rather compile often. what is it that you do on Linux that cannot be done in Windows95 no, win95 is an OS by crooks, for morons crooks? what are they forcing anyone to do? crooks sometimes convince people, not force them Fare, there may turn out to be no compromize - only a trivial optimal situation. that's fraud, it's still force if I sell you a piece of glass at the price of a diamond, I'm a crook, even if I don't put a gun against your head but Windows95 does things automatically, while Linux makes me do them but your use of force is dishonesty 11:50am tmf: if it's the case, then perfect! you're forcing me to deal with the unreal Kenn: open windows at the right place to fill my 30-screen virtual desktop you could do that in Windows95 Kenn: how? Kenn: Linux can survive for weeks w/o rebooting oh yes, well. that's right, no source code (and even when it reboots, it's a hardware problem) Linux is better overall which in practice gives me some week-long persistence of session state Who cares, TUNES is trictly on a if-you-do-like-it-the-way-it-is-then-change-it bases. ( don't like it ... ) I hope TUNES will gimme years-long persistence of session (think of your electric bill) Windows95 saves you money? ha! Kenn: it's a laptop -- I suspend and resume it oh people I know using win95 on laptops prefer to systematically shutdown & reboot, because of problems anyway, it cleans up their system Windows95 sucks but it automatically detects my printer when I re-install it I never reinstall a printer I re-install Windows95, not the printer I can connect to tens of different networks, and have the configuration of all apps updated in one command people i know using laptops running windows 95, have to open them and take out the battery in order for it to reboot when stuck in standby mode :)))) I never reinstall linux thanks to debian! I like Debian recently, I even upgraded from RH to debian w/o rebooting! no wait, no I don't Linux is evil, it is just as bad as Windows95 it uses C Kenn: Linux is stupid, but it's not evil but isn't stupidity evil? it's like those kind little brutes you find sometimes very stupid, but very kind, and very strong stupidity isn't evil. how can you achieve non-determinism? errare humanum. perseverare diabolicum. not, stupid at all, just stuborn as hell and usually not up to it. Kenn: non-det appears naturally in presence of concurrency but how can that form of non-det be used for reflection? Kenn: you misunderstood the paper is that the help the user provides? the non-determinism is in the logic used probably the implementation may well be (mostly) deterministic how can a deterministic computer do anything non-deterministic? Kenn: non-determinism is a way to express incomplete knowledge like what? Godel theorem says complete knowledge is impossible complete knowledge of what? of anything? non-determinism allows us to go around this limitation Kenn: of self meaning, in any system it is impossible to have complete knowledge of the system as an internal observer? (like the Universe) If you want to get from a city A to a city D, the exact route is not determined, but you still have a long drive ahead of you. what do you mean, the exact route? 12:00pm If I told you directions, what roads to take, isn't that exact? if you want to drive through city B or F. Yes, but then the journey would be determined. tmf: sure what? don't you want to determine the journey? sorry, gotta go for 61453! * Fare/#Tunes is away or are we talking about non-determinism yes! ok, thought you were talking only about complete knowledge just to explain how a computer problem can involve non-determinism ok:) how can it perform non-determinism though? one method is "brute force" where you try out each possibility one at a time. like if you were trying to find a square root of a positive integer and you only want one, but there are two? ( shit, I'll have to move to another consol ) -:- SignOff tmf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- tmf [s720@termitt.ii.uib.no] has joined #tunes Kenn, what was you saying? -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.222] has joined #Tunes Hullo if you want a number when squared equals some positive integer, there are two answers, but might only want one, so which one the computer gives you is unimportant? C++? i guess C++ is a language that adds quite something to C, but in the end has no more value than C good mauning C++? i think C++ is a language that adds quite something to C, but in the end has no more value than C C? C is bloated what was that? Scheme? Scheme is ((nearly) (perfect)) abi: C is also the third letter of the alphabet. okay, Kaufmann. C? somebody said C was bloated or the third letter of the alphabet. Lisp? hmmm... Lisp is ((simply) (perfect)) LOL ? ! Kaufmann: I read your article What'd you think? I think you might be right, I am not sure. Have you ever read _When Things Start to Think_? Haskell? Haskell is lazy purely functional programming language at http://www.haskell.org/ Nope basically it is about how the future of computers is to make them deal with people in the real world 12:10pm "The future of computers"? I always get suspicious when a book is about "the future of computers". put them in things and let them deal with people, instead of making people deal with gray boxes how they should be used then They're always either incredibly wrong or just off the mark by 10-20 years Kenn: I agree with that the author discovered a viable quantum computer (and built it too) Oh. So he might be worth listening then :) yes :) He works at the MIT Media Lab -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us315.javanet.com] has joined #tunes another person! OTOH, Roger Penrose proved black holes... that doesn't say much about his current stance regarding neurology Kenn: oh kewl * Kaufmann/#Tunes intends to go there well, the author's presented stance is related so ... abi, w7? tmf: wish i knew Apertos? abi: Apertos is a proprietary, reflective, object-oriented operating system but there is a hole in your argument Kenn: you missed the point. What I'm saying is that Penrose seems to think that the source of our human condition is that our neurons tap into quantum uncertainty one wide enough to drive a starship through What? your article says that only scientists and engineers can use computers effectively Penrose might have been right regarding math 30 years ago, but he's probably wrong regarding neurons right now what about children? Ken: it does not say that yes it does :) and why is Penrose probably wrong about nuerons? It says that only people whose job is to deal with computers should be required to learn how to deal with computers. I agree with that, but you also say that many intelligent people cannot use computers effectively without being scientists or engineers Kenn: because his stance is very unscientific, unproven and very reminiscent of many other crackpot theories formed out of a personal need to comfort themselves in the certainty that we're somehow unique or special. yes, well it is a common malady of very intelligent people like Einstein Kenn: no, you misread that. What I said was that because of the clumsiness of current UIs, many otherwise intelligent people get lost in the interface and fail to do what they want - the "artichoke phenomenon" isn't that what I said? Not really :) that is what I meant 12:20pm And furthermore, I said that many people, however intelligent, need special training in order to be able to use a computer - which is not How Things Should Be (tm). the solution is to make computers invisible embed them in mundane things like paper and tables and car seats and lights and containers In one word, "appliance" computers and toilet paper that screams "nooooooooooo" what is an "appliance" computer? Fare: around? Fare departed * Fare/#Tunes is back we're saved! (back with 61453) what is 61453 Fare: ' hcf: around?' whatcha need? abi: W7 is at http://tunes.org/Review/VMs.html#lambda is Tierra listed in the Virtual Machine Review page? Kaufmann: there's a thread about UI on comp.lang.lisp Kenn: AC is basically what you're describin Ke: go look and tell me -- add it if it ain't there Ka: AC? AC is basically what you're describin appliance computers abi: no, AC is appliance computers abi: no, AC is Appliance Computers okay, Fare. okay, hcf. :P abi: AC is also alternate current okay, Fare. what's DC? i don't know, fare hcf: what can you find on compiler verification? or specification? Fare: like the verification url i gave u b4? yeah I found a way to rewrite implement1 so it be "sexy", but that involves a bibliography on the topic of compiler verification or specification also implementation specification and verification who is handling the web pages? Kenn: a cron job Fare: k, i'l look no, who is maintaining them? Ke: no one. I'm mostly the only one to update them ok Ke: you can check on the cvsweb and/or on the cvs mailing-list... -:- krz [kzaback@gnat6.owo.com] has joined #tunes 12:30pm Fare: the HLL would make Prism pointless? Fare: any persons/places/things to include from the start for this compliler/implementation verification/specification search? (or exclude) -:- krz [kzaback@gnat6.owo.com] has left #tunes [] goodbye -:- SignOff Kenn: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System hcf: I've already found about VLISP hcf: I know that ASM people have done stuff like that, but not found THE right URL/paper Ke: I believe that Prism is basically misled hcf: also if you can find entries in .bib format, that'd help *a lot* Fare: this could be something to ask comp.compilers about hcf: in comp.compilers, I'd never get the answer in time got a deadline? I must finish and post the article by 19990719 12:40pm oic around midday, my time abi: reflective? i don't know, hcf Fare: fill that in plz how? abi: reflective is being able to correctly model oneself; see Reflection abi: reflection? somebody said reflection was a property of a system that can refer to itself and manipulate its state or rough on my brain abi: reflection also is at http://tunes.org/Review/Reflection.html 12:50pm -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[CMIV.rdyn.saunalahti.fi]) -:- s_r [sr@phila-dialup243.nni.com] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@CMIV.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes hi smkl hello -:- SignOff tmf: #TUNES (Leaving) 01:20pm !mccaffrey.openprojects.net!! Received :sterling.openprojects.net SERVER lackey.openprojects.net from sterling.openprojects.net !?! -:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s_r[phila-dialup243.nni.com]) -:- s_r [sr@phila-dialup159.nni.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein. For more information regarding the good and evil of nationalism, contact Fare at OpenProjectsNet #Tunes. (Heh.)) -:- s_r [sr@phila-dialup159.nni.com] has left #tunes [] Fare: around? * eStormy/#Tunes listens to his new puff the magic dragon mp3. 02:00pm * Fare/#Tunes is back Fare: sent u by mail the 1st list its broad, i will now narrow down hcf: thanks a lot! it any of the urls r any good, glean whatever additional keywords u can from em Fare: care anything about the LF Logical Framework? Fare: oh and btw, 1 or 2 on urllist1 dont necessarily include anything about c/i-v/s, they just seemed potentially useful, maybe not to u, perhaps tril ok I've heard about LF, never seen it could you make a search for c/i-v/s and BibTeX or .bib ? i will thats part of the narrowing down 02:20pm ok. thanks again you should be hired as finder-in-chief in some big research lab! shall I bounce urllist1 to tril? "feel free" ;) yeah! Paul Curzon has .bib's! YEAH! I think mitch wand has that, too could you check? which url is mitch wand's? aha! http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/wand/pubs.html see also: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/wand/ 02:30pm k! hcf: why don't you become PhD student? -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250105.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes tee-see-en! -:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-84.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes uh hello? hey hi sooo what's been going on since i was gone Fare: i'm not the academic type HickServ: we finished tunes! hs: don't ask me !!! tcn: wassup? hcf have you been smoking crack again? HickServ: no, just huffing fare!! isn't it past your bedtime? hcf: oh i've been busy all week playing a game so i've been gone :\ tcn: for yesterday, yes HickServ: we havnt missed ur cluelessness hs get a life! fare: did you get my email on that parser HS: long ago? tcn: no i like it the way it is HS: did you receive mine? yeah mine was in response to "lexing" * HickServ/#tunes lifts his leg and pisses on hcf's worthless leg :D where's that "cool dude" water? ~alti is too theoretic for the project Fare: btw, perhaps we should devise a simple keyword weight system so i know which r of more import abi: forget ~alti Fare: I forgot ~alti hcf: in that case, compiler or implementation or something like that is most important so is either specification or verification or proof or correctness fare: did you even respond to my email on parsing? Fare: something like (compliler | implementation) ((verification | proof | correctness) | specification) ? HS: my mail queue is 279 messages long oh sorry hcf: yup hcf: if you can think of something better, tell me :) 02:40pm well i just you will respond someday soon oh, and it's even better if it talks about concurrency or concurrent/distributed/parallel systems, or something like that HS: did you look at the CLHS section on parsing? i don't remember :\ it was a while ago i'll look again heh tcn: ? you could start with FORTH and LISP parsing (hs) tcn: the CLHS standard describes in detail how to parse CommonLISP yeah im doing a sexp parser -:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Leaving) oh ok wooohoo he left! ;) -:- Kenn [cpe2@1Cust86.tnt1.tampa.fl.da.uu.net] has joined #Tunes hello? Kenn: hoy hoy to you too Fare? Fare is stubborn, sure Ke: ? is anyone still working on the LispOS project? Ke: yes and no in as much as anyone ever did, yes in as much as it never really was a project, but only an interest group, no Fa: is there any code? Ke: for? 02:50pm Fa: for a LispOS Ke: several people in the group have their own projects, some of which have code Fa: public projects? some any pointers? mine's public.. here, it's at http://tunes.org/~tcn/retro.html check that page: http://www.sonic.net/~bear/scheme/ocelot.htm I just posted a snapshot of my new version tcn: yours doesn't have a lisp compiler... yet tcn: Retro is LISP based? tcn: is IDE w working? Ke: not yet tcn: when you have a LISP compiler, you intend to re-implement the OS in LISP? Fare: can u give me some paper titles / author names that should be referenced by any good paper/bib on this subject? no, I'm writing it mostly in FORTH now, and if I re-implement anything soon, it'll be in assembler, for speed Fare: IDE read works, haven't tried write yet.. should work fine though. IDE is great :) using your FORTH compiler? (SCSI is said to be pretty simple to program too, it's closely related) tcn: maybe write a test program in FORTH to see how write fares? hcf: did you send me a huge file? Kenn: yep. my FORTH is pretty complete now Fa: you did that on purpose :) K: what? Fare: huh? no "how write fares" hehe that threw me K: I use words that come to my mind Fa: sure threw you? my name is pronounced quite differently I thought it was a typo/mistranslation tcn: what should have I said? anyway I should really factor the ide code more tcn: is it written all in asm? maybe rewrite in forth? nah it's only about 1 page suppose I wanted to implement a Scheme compiler for Retro... should I write it in FORTH? Ke: yes and no ok 2-3 pages Ke: you could reuse some of FORTH's structure 03:00pm but I would disrecommend the 2-stack thing well, hum. after all, why not? Fa: you mean I would need to implement a modified FORTH? Ke: keep of forth the principle of threaded execution of a virtual machine Ke: but adapt the virtual machine to your needs Fa: what does it matter what language I implement a Scheme compiler in (other than convenience)? i.e. most likely one stack + one heap, or maybe even just one heap Fare: c/i-v/s paper titles / author names? Ke: the runtime support should be FORTH/asm Ke: the compiler itself should be Scheme Fa: like the operating "system" hcf: maybe Lamport for implementation & concurrency things hcf: but I already know lamport hcf: maybe Halpern has good stuff on implementation in distributed systems? Ke: tunes IS the "operating" system Fa: but how do we get there from here? Fare: im talking about papers ppl should refer to Ke: at your choice, begin either from the compiler or from the runtime support Fa: well, you really need both hcf: uh? -:- binEng [Anders@dialup44-3-1.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes Ke: but they are mostly independent, once you define the interface Fa: but they should be defined by the other no, you can define a nice interface and then develop independently see LiSP Fa: but don't you want to define the interface in Scheme (or later the HLL)? no because I want to run it on the hardware, not inside a scheme interpreter later, it's still time to do it in scheme, have a meta-compiler, things like that Ke: see how the VLISP people do it Fa: ok, I meant later VLISP? VLISP is proven -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Shutting down.. <k!14>) VLISP is a "proven" implementation of Scheme what is proven? abi: no, VLISP is a "proven" implementation of Scheme okay, Fare. Fa: should I use Retro or use build runtime support strictly to support a scheme compiler? Ke: what we want from our initial implementation: 1) exist 2) run correctly want we don't want is 3) speed Fa: but what should it do initially? I want speed! Fa: Retro exists, and runs what we don't want is 4) C 03:10pm Ke: retro is not lisp yet tcn: we don't want speed _initially_ keep you code free of C no, but I never *ignore* performance Fa: so i need to implement run time support for the equivalent of the standard library for Scheme? then implement the compiler? Retro is unusual in being C-free :) tcn: sure, it's just not a priority as long as it runs "fast enough" to begin with Kenn: if you want, take an existing scheme compiler, and make a stupid asm/FORTH backend But you could always build a LISP implementation under Linux or whatever, using assembly instead of C Fa: or just compile it using the OS-kit tcn: sure the most important point is being C-free why? alternatively, grok CMUCL and make it clean Ke: unless you're ready to implement a C compiler in TUNES... Ke: we want *dynamic* code generation Fa: run-time generation? this means either integrate GCC in tunes, or make tunes C-free plus C would make reasoning tools a HELL runtime code generation, sure. In tunes, everything is runtime ok I'm done for a while -:- SignOff Kenn: #TUNES (Leaving) Fare: is that verification in LF any good? At least Forth doesn't force any arbitrary restrictions on you, left over from punch card days.. I always hated how other languages I used pretended runtime code generation was impossible only those you used. hcf: in LF? am not there yet. Which URL was that? 03:20pm * Fare/#Tunes is seeing the ASM and VLISP stuff in his .bib Fare: i dont recall hcf: can you find back the MIA link in Languages.html about RTCG? hcf: I'll find hcf: if it's the ~alti thing, then it's bad (I mean, no good to me -- I'm pretty sure it has lots of intrinsic value) tcn: forth *does* force restrictions on you tcn: that's the price for being completely low-level Fare: http://liinwww.ira.uka.de/bibliography/Compiler/TOPPS.html seems quite good hcf: thanks too many pointers too many things to read ahh forth is *standardized* at a low level.. but it goes high Fare: topps bibs come every time i do a search for stuff u want so concentrate on the above url besides, the standard for FORTH sucks hcf: can you find a .ps for a 1986 paper by Halpern & Emerson in JACM 33(1): {``{S}ometimes'' and ``not never'' revisited: on branching versus linear time temporal logic}, tcn: forget the standard for FORTH * hcf/#tunes will look hcf: you're an angel! if you were my type, I'd marry you! tcn: ever used HP RPL? * hcf/#tunes is also the devil in the details ;) Fare: nope 03:30pm * Fare/#Tunes sent a post to c.l.l. but sees nothing :( :( :( * hcf/#tunes piles urls on Fare * Fare/#Tunes is hit * Fare/#Tunes falls down hcf: what's "good poop"? hcf: if you put comments, put them after the URL -- my auto system likes that Fare: poop =~ stuff Fare: oh ok oh delim'd by whitespace? yup one url per line all comments on same line at least, that's what my perl script likes which does what, html'ization? yup with a
  • comments 03:40pm if you pre-html it, file! s/file/fine/ i consider urls to be comments too at least well done urls when no comment, I use the url -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Ping timeout for tcn[cci-209150250105.clarityconnect.net]) 03:50pm -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250105.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes tcn!? tcn are you planning to switch to bsd? damn s_r abi: no, tcn is the author of retro Fare: object code translation @ http://www.ifi.unizh.ch/richter/people/pilz/oct/ hehe did I miss anything ? no 04:00pm I gotta go soon tcn: nice message tcn: bye! and do test the IDE rw! oh, my reply about "al's hypothesis?" latest msg -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us244.javanet.com] has joined #tunes wb hcf 04:10pm hcf: ? just doing it myself since water isnt here to do it ;) well, see ya -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason) Fare: ftp://ftp.cs.washington.edu/homes/pardo/ no http? seemingly not :( :( :( and iv tried the search features of the www.cs.wash site and they plain suck eggs no other good page about RTCG ? still looking for rtcg aha! * hcf/#tunes is too good http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/compiler/rtcg.html 04:20pm congratulations, hcf! how did you find it? rephrasing of search params on what engine? used a title of a paper, alta 04:30pm urls may appear on both irc and a list, theyre on a list for better forwarding to tril 04:40pm * Fare/#Tunes just wrote an angry message on tunes@tunes.org! Fare: how did u come about the halpern & emerson paper reference? hcf: halpern gave it to me! wow he got an hp? hp? hmmm... hp is homepage oh, yeah but w/ no .ps's ? halpern is at http://simon.cs.cornell.edu/Info/People/halpern/ 04:50pm -:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes my computer is *soooo* much more stable when I don't use netscape! -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-169.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hi all <_QZ> hello hoy, _QZ Fare: cant find a .ps for that halpern/emerson paper, just too old yup, that's what I thought cool. url's Fare: is the list format ok now? <_QZ> odd, i have a version of nasm97 that was compiled with libc5 and it actually works on glibc2.1 but gives about 1000 syntax errors while compiling -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping .....) QZ: ltrace? <_QZ> ltrace? <_QZ> s/while compiling/while assembling/ 05:10pm <_QZ> Fare: what is ltrace? apt-get install ltrace strace at library-call level -:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BitchX-74a14 -- just do it.) hcf: ...Chirica, David F. Martin: Toward Compiler Implementation Correctness... -:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes hcf: could you find it? * Fare/#Tunes is exploiting hcf * Fare/#Tunes feels like an evil capitalist exploiting poor proletariat worker ;-> * hcf/#tunes tries <_QZ> Fare: what is ltrace? -:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-88.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-169.tscnet.net]) * hcf/#tunes puts away email for now ltrace is strace at library-call level -:- _water is now known as water water! hey -:- s_r [sr@phila-dialup652.nni.com] has joined #tunes * hcf/#tunes is away: (brb) water: what's up? -:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-179.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes <_water> geez <_water> sorry, fare. i missed the last minute water: what's up? <_water> trying to make something good out of our interaction the other night <_water> i repeat :) <_water> also, i'm going to sea for 2.5 weeks -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-88.tscnet.net]) I'm despairing of jdl * hcf/#tunes is back <_water> i'll meet Maneesh in San Diego twice <_water> he's going to introduce me to a professor 05:20pm -:- _water is now known as water Fare: perhaps add some of those urls to the review's todo(s) someone pass me the url's please * hcf/#tunes pokes Fare * Fare/#Tunes is back water: greet him on my behalf greet whom? maneesh yes. of course water: whats ur prefered email addr? is water@tunes.org ok? hcf: not yet i need to set up automatic forwarding from there to whatever my useful account is because the ship is isolated, net-wise why not use a popper? -:- NetSplit: lackey.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [05:25pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [lackey.openprojects.net] water: see pointers at the bottom of ~fare/pointers.html -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-238-19.s19.tnt2.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #Tunes hcf: not familiar with it fare: ok also, see the pointers that I've just added to the review project... -:- Netjoined: lackey.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes wb hey atg (use cvsweb if no other cvs) Fare: icuc, David F. Martin Memorial (died dec 96) @ http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~homeier/martin.html Fare: so far, same prob as the previous, too old hcf: and I guess I can't ask the author about a hardcopy? ?!? bertrand russell archives! on fare's pointer page! rock on! Fare: i'l check on the co-author now 05:30pm mail day! mail day! there are days when your mailbox is desperately empty hehe there are days when it's desperately full what surprise will jdl get from fare today? * water/#tunes finds out water: bad surprise good, then depends for whom :) oh Fare: http://www.altavista.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=aq&text=yes?pg=aq&text=yes&kl=en&r=&search=Search&q=title%3Aimplementation+and+title%3Acorrectness&d0=&d1=?pg=aq&text=yes&kl=en&r=&search=Search&q=title%3Acorrectness+and+implementation&d0=&d1= * Fare/#Tunes is disappointed by jdl <_QZ> Fare: why? need I say more? no :( ? water: I still have hopes in you -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-179.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] fare: do you think water is insecure? a bit why? if i was ever around you, i'd feel that type of energy radiating from you 05:40pm _QZ: ur not a tunes member right? s_r: what type of energy? sr: talking to me? no pphew! sr: to whom? water he left :P i wonder if BeOS will ever get the support of game developers -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-128.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes ok. i've returned from venting om 05:50pm i can't believe Mr_Wrong thinks those things of me What things? things are getting out of hand!!! oh! -:- s_r [sr@phila-dialup652.nni.com] has left #tunes [] he seems to think i've read GEB, not actual godel, for instance i hate being an analytical person as well as a spiritual one people confuse one statement for the other Fare: care about attribute grammars? i'd bet he'd find it weird that i read godel, church, turing, and russell and didn't even hear about GEB until justa year ago oh, fare: i don't appreciate patronization in any form. abi: chirica is at http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~lchirica/ -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-064.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes 06:00pm beh! Hey wat! :) hcf: can you find a .ps for Lamport's "What it means for a concurrent program to satisfy a specification" (or a revised and renamed version of said paper) ? water: sometimes, it's no more about patronization, but about defending one's identity beh: where were you two days ago? we were having an intense discussion, and i needed someone who understood my ideas wat: Sorry :( water: and sometimes, it's really because one DOES have something to teach to the other it happens * water/#tunes holds his tongue not acknowledging that one has something to teach you is bad, too * water/#tunes bites his tongue wat: We're working on a pretty time consuming project, I've been very unavailable to everyone :( hcf: attribute grammars? not so sure. wat: I mean for work beh: ok Fare: well, put 'chirica' in fermivista if u feel like it hcf: ok Fare: found chirica's hp (above) but no pubs there (the bastard) so no toward c.i.c s/$/ yet$/ cic? almost given up on it (toward c.i.c) toward compiler impl. corr. humok hcf: can you find that Lamport POPL'85 paper? Fare: could u lessen up a bit on the requests for ancient papers? ;) Fare: havnt looked quite yet might be hard, since those bastard ACM people prevented putting papers on the web but maybe a modified version made it i have to agree about the ACM there yeah, wtf is up w/ ACM in not putting shit up? if I get a paper accepted at an ACM conference, I'll refuse to sign copyright assignments ancient papers are like well-aged wine at least jmc puts his oldies up yeah 06:10pm water: depends on what papers (and what wines) well, yes believe me, some wines just don't age well :) jmc is great! all praise jmc! but you remember the aged papers like the good aged wines J McCarthy is the sweetest! * water/#tunes prefers a dry :D Beholder: tell me when the qt crap is over in #tpp qt crap? quicktime? hcf: It's a linux newbie looking to run LICQ, just helping him out oh 06:20pm hcf: It's over does anyone understand the inherit limitation in _just_coders_ attempting to unify programming with using an object system and providing arbitrary kinds of abstractions at the same time? i mean, isn't there much more to it than programmers would naturally ever consider? 06:30pm OO is burnt into most programmers heads... to put it blutly :( strange that i'm the only smalltalk user here, and one of the few who actually _thinks_ about self on a regular basis -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[209-122-238-19.s19.tnt2.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) Jecel is using SELF for Merlin duh * water/#tunes reads the self mailing lists so? what do you mean, "so"? * Fare/#Tunes is not appealed by either Smalltalk or SELF's syntax or semantics he's one of the biggest contributors nnit well, is there anything notable to learn from the SELF ml? not for you :) almighty Fare pfff sorry hcf... guy doesn't wanna go I gess... so Jecel is the most active on SELF? not the most, but definitely up there ok does agora not count for anything? he answers questions well how far is he? i don't know exactly hcf: no, it doesn't agora is purely experimental, and not much used * water/#tunes looks up Self/R's progress * Beholder/#tunes wonders if anyone knows about an OS called RMS 86... not to break the conversation... what's .mt? Self/R ? 06:40pm it's jecel's idea of extending self via mop's and such so that it can handle an os as well as reflection in a very powerful way reflective self it's what his os project has been renamed no more Merlin? * Fare/#Tunes likes merlin so much... merlin will be the hardware platform wow! he has his own mailing list now * water/#tunes checks out the merlin archive bleh. not much * Beholder/#tunes is looking at the logs and wonders if fare and water are on good terms :( no i didn't quit irc earlier to go knit! knit? Beh: we're trying to disagree in a cordial way fare: i don't study self because i like it, i study it for it's shortcomings fare: just the same as i do for lisp/scheme fare: Knit: Making sweaters and socks and such with wool and needles... I'm sure you're mom does it water: abi/factoid for 'self/r' and better one for 'self', plz Beh: she used to -- long ago abi self? i think self is a prototype-based object system abi merlin? i guess merlin is at http://www.lsi.usp.br/~jecel/merlin/ abi jecel? i guess jecel is using SELF for Merlin Fare: Ever get stuck with thoese horrible toques and socks that were too damn heavy to wear and got to 50 deg C in about 3 min when you were wearing them? Damn I hated that (sorry, not part of discussion, but knitting I hate) 06:50pm Fare: tcic search over, no results. now doing seek for Lamport's * Fare/#Tunes has been seeking for Lamport's paper w/o success maybe another paper that covers substantially the same subject? * Fare/#Tunes cries: DOWN WITH THE ACM! hehe Fare: keywords etc for paper of substantially same subject? concurren{t,cy} specification I found a gasm paper on the subject my, too many papers to review for bibliography, and too little time! * Fare/#Tunes goes with his part of the paper, confident that what he did wasn't done anyway Fare: title, author, url if possible for related gasm paper? hcf: http://bigfoot.eecs.umich.edu/groups/Ealgebras/ see around broylamp.ps.gz asm's cool Fare: "What it Means for a Concurrent Program to Satisfy a Specification: Why No One Has Specified Priorioty" by Leslie Lamport, correct? hum. Remains Paul Curzon's papers hcf: yup found it? no, just getting the proper title oh and of course, .bib is useless if I couldn't read the paper to begin with :( Fare: this paper is from '85?! ur going backwards damnit ;) hcf: that's a bibliography, damnit! 07:00pm the kind of things that will make reviewers reject your paper because you didn't do your homework, if it doesn't contain the right references maybe he redefines such things in a recent TLA paper??? hcf: maybe if you can find a home page for TLA, I could find something there? tla? tla is Three Letter Acronym abi: TLA is also Lamport's Temporal Logic of Actions okay, Fare. or is it only action? Fare: this acronym quite common? abi: tla is also at http://www.research.digital.com/SRC/personal/Leslie_Lamport/tla/tla.html okay, hcf. hcf: thanks a lot! cool hcf: what would I do w/o you? Fare: have free time hum. That, too! 07:10pm Fare: whats next? water: need anything? >>> hcf [nef@me-portland-us244.javanet.com] requested PING 932005109 from TUNES not now, but thank you gotta go now, later :) bye beh <_QZ> Fare: u here? bye wat -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-064.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes [] <_QZ> anyone know what a dialup ppp route should look like hum hcf: sleep is next? <_QZ> Fare: do u know? Fare: no sleep for the unread * Fare/#Tunes goes and downloads lots of TLA papers -:- SignOff eStormy: #TUNES (brb) -:- eStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes -:- Mr_Wrong [seanl@adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-064.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes Guess I'm back :) Hi Beholder Well, lets get this rolling. Mr_Wrong, I'm sure you haven't chatted with me yet right? 07:20pm I don't know if I have or not MW! Hi Fare MW: Probably not. But I've been reviewing the chan logs, the conversations of the past two days. I don't have a voice in #modtunes Aah, ok Mr_Wrong: #modtunes has no logger atm That's why we are discussing here yes, that's the only reason for it * hcf/#tunes pokes Tril Fare: You here for a while? <_QZ> Mr_Wrong: do u know anything about routes in linux? I'm rather sleepy maybe here if I can find 61453 _QZ: not now plz Fare: Me too, we'll try to make this quick. MR: I've noticed that you and water and fare seem to be having dissagreements _QZ: I know something changed in 2.2 Beholder: Well, mostly about what it's going to take to get this project rolling The problem seems to be that nobody cares if this project gets anywhere if it's not going in the direction they want it to MR: There is much debate about this topic, but it can't be resolved without understanding all points of view. Have you bothered to read everything that was posted on the site (including the arrows document)? MW: "the" direction is a bit too harsh I haven't read much that's on the site. MW: at least the FAQ? Mr_Wrong: we care too much MR: What about the mailing list? Beholder: I'm not on the mailing list Fare: I've read part of it. is ti that long? Beh: got more time, now? wasup on unios@ ? The faq is long and verbose. But I will read the rest of it if you tell me how to make it shorter... MR: I was brought on to bring about this "magicial" direction. But as you can see, it's still pretty chaotic, but it survives well this way, and progress in what people are learning, and the evolution of their own ideas. There is no single way Tunes could be implemented. It takes more than just a single person to decide how it will go... the common unified "vision" has not been established simply because it has to be right the first time. Fare: fix abi's ASM factoid plz 07:30pm Fare: UniOS is dead slow at the moment, nothing much going on other than it getting older :) We're coming back to it when we understand more... Tunes has much more thought into it at the moment ;) Fare: When I started UniOS the concept was to make something OO (yes you may retch now ;) but a unified system is now a better goal, and we're behind on unified thinking (imho) asm? asm is either assembly at http://metalab.unc.edu/LDP/HOWTO/Assembly-HOWTO.html or Abstract State Machines at http://www.eecs.umich.edu/gasm/ Beholder: Why does it have to be right the first time? I have yet to see a complex project where everything was right the first time MR: The premise has to be correct. Not the entire codebase. MR: There are many ways to approach the problem. Water and Fare both have ideas on what could be a "TUNES", and both are valid according to the specs. Validity is irrelevant if neither of them leads to a result. Beh: by the Charter, in case of conflict, mine is Tunes, and his is either silent, or a split project :) MW: wanna help me code stuff? Fare: Yes, you being an orignator. But what if the other one is better? Fare: What do you want me to help with? Beh: then I'm lame, and either I see the light, or you leave me MR: Who says neither is leading to a result? Both are being prototyped right now. Both will be tested. MW: depends on your tastes and proficiencies Beh: my approach has no code result right now Beholder: There isn't any collaboration right now. Everybody's working on their own code. Nobody's sharing any code. They're just looking at it. Fare: Well, some ideas are being prototyped right now :) I'm sure you're will come soon. MW: there's been *some* collaboration with retro I need to look at Retro... lemme go take a look and some with clementine (but clem is not publicly available yet) MW: I say *some*, but clearly, mostest of the work is tcn's. MR: That's because some have differing approaches to the same problem... this is a *good* thing. Each one will come up with a design and if it's the best of all of them, then it's Tunes... or it's the new OS Arrows, or Prisim... whatever. Either way it's not putting all the eggs in one basket. If you'd like to join a project, then you are free, and encoraged to do so. Pick one that you think will be best one. Not everyone can agree, thats How much of the stuff in the retro docs is actually implemented? MR: We are a group, but not a collective. Held together by the goal, not the approach. 07:40pm Beholder: I would tend to disagree. People here can't even agree what the goal is, beyond a new OS. MW: ask tcn! or run the code! I don't see tcn here. (it *does* run!) Beh: what diffs between unios & tunes? MR: I believe the goal is a better (best possible) OS. It may be vague, but it is a goal. What is "better" Fare: At this point not too much. Other than the approach again. Same goal in the end. Mr: A Better OS. The goal is not just vague. It's meaningless. What does better mean? I have quite more precise idea of what such "better OS" should be as explained in the FAQ Yeah, but it only matters if people on the project agree on what "bettter" is. And how it should be spelled :) MR: Believe it or not, there is an idea of what better is... and it is known by most, if not all members. You learn the definition of better by talking with the people here. It's not the same words, but it's the same concept to everyone. To summarize, make computers easier to use, easier to program. So a better OS is one that's easy to use MR: Hang around here a while longer, read some docs, and you'll get the idea And program Anyways, I'll let Fare and wat take over this discussion if it needs to be, I must sleep now. Ok, see you Nice chatting with all of you :) bye beh -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-064.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes [] I have been thinking about the dynamic compilation thing. It's only faster if you can cache native code between executions Because the compilation is overhead. If you have to continually recompile code every time a new binary is executed, it won't be faster. MW: looked at Oberon / Juice? 07:50pm Yeah, I have MW: depends, but, yeah, caching can help MW: you need cache only for heavily optimized code most code needn't even be cached I suppose you can generate code very quickly yeah Probably almost as fast as reading it off of disk, if it isn't optimized at all unoptimized, or lightly optimized code, can be compiled faster than you can load it from disk even faster as Moore's law plays out But Oberon doesn't try to merge multiple threads in a single stream. It either uses multiple preemptive threads or cooperative threads, if I remember correctly yeah (assuming you have a large enough scratchpad area in RAM, tho) also true (large enough depends on said level of optimization) Well, there's a dynamic code generation program that generates code at ten instructions per generated instruction That's pretty damn fast MW: we needn't merge threads in one stream Fare: Someone had been telling me that was your intent MW: that's typically something to do only for heavily optimized code I suppose you could use cooperative multithreading wherever you wanted though since you would have complete control over native code MW: (technique known as deforestation) And run one thread per processor Deforestation. I like that Hmm, this is sounding better and better MW: LLL/index.html#multithreading Particularly if you allow untrusted native code to run in a separate process still yes, the web site addresses quite a lot, mw gotta go. Bye! -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-230-247.s247.tnt7.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes om 08:00pm om om om om om om om om om hey! om om AlonzoTG: STOP om om see? thanks! =) LeTs MaKe An Os this is what #modtunes was made to take care of atg: you really want to talk? hehehehehheheheheehheehhehehehehehehehhehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehhehehehehehehehehehehehehheehhehehehehehehehehehehehehhehehehehehehehhehehehehhehehehehhehehehehehehehhehehehehehehhehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe =\ * AlonzoTG/#tunes is too insane to talk. Dammit, is he drunk? :) I ph33l drunk Ooh, he's 1337. = =) m3 l337 hax0o d00d! -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) actually I just watched an epesode of crusade JMS is G0D!!! -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us137.javanet.com] has joined #tunes L3T$ M4k3 4n 0$!!!! 08:10pm om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om AlonzoTG: do u want to die? om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om yes -:- Mr_Wrong [seanl@adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #tunes [] om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om om <_QZ> ban him om om om om om om om om om =(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( this is how I act when my MP3 player doesn't work. screw you BeOS user!!! * AlonzoTG/#tunes wants to talk about OS Not arrows Not how to use linux... Not the latest joysticks... JUST OPERATING SYSTEMS!!! architecture. ok what about em? 08:20pm man I wish my MP3 player worked... Look: windoze 3.11 simply doesn't work anymore!!! AlonzoTG: JUST OPERATING SYSTEMS!!! not MP3 players!!! In like a week I'm going to be off line.. I NEED AN OS NOW!!!!! * water/#tunes will eat here i am at a crossroads too Mac OS X, BeOS, Linux, ... look THEY ALL SUCK!!!! so? DOS is the best OS I've ever seen!!!! umm. no maybe geos You need glasses i had a dos-based pmode os for a while =\ i hacked it out of a lang interpreter coolers! =) it was as fast as a lisp * AlonzoTG/#tunes has done nothing except a stupid maze program for a class... It was the best maze program in the class but that's all I've ever done =( and had access to all the good graphics modes and mouse =) nice it was ok water: and where is it now? on my old 486 at my parents house UPLOAD IT!!! =P no it was lame w0w! the song plaid all the way through!!! besides, i violated copyright by hacking the hell out of that interpreter G00D!!! so it would be bad to post it FR33 the W4R3Z!!! Anyways I posted to unios today suggesting the most radical idea of actually writing an OS.... I have about 85% of a blueprint... what is that? oh n/m The only problem is that I am far too lame to implement it... whatevet =\ LiKe I CoUlD UsE SoMe HeLp HeRe.... =\\\\\\\ i'm not the one to ask there is an os-writers' how-to and faq on the os ring 08:30pm you should check the os ring out wring? geepers... url? hmm AlonzoTG: http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?ring=os&list, http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?ring=posring;list hehe * hcf/#tunes fingers ache ;) hehe AlonzoTG: http://megahertz.njit.edu/~bdk0012/faq.html, http://www.serpentine.com/~bos/os-faq/ atg: be careful what you ask for around here. you just might get it. ;) thanks, you just made my day. =) * water/#tunes drools over Apple's new g4 machine specs. 08:40pm * hcf/#tunes watches as #tunes' imaginary maidbot springs to life and mops up water's mess debuting at 500mhz (no comments, you intel freaks. that means 700 mhz to you) hehe -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from king.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is king.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from king.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from king.openprojects.net) -:- king.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(33)] 8% -:- [global users on irc(165)] 42% -:- [invisible users on irc(232)] 58% -:- [ircops on irc(16)] 4% -:- [total users on irc(397)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(32)] (avg. 12 users per server) -:- [total channels created(126)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !king.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 36 (34 clients) !king.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 1 ca 1(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System -:- topic set by hcf [Wed Jul 14 12:40:27 1999] -:- [Users(#Tunes:7)] [ TUNES ] [ hcf ] [ AlonzoTG ] [ eStormy ] [ water ] [ _QZ ] [ abo ] -:- Channel #Tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.014 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES ok. i thought there was netsplit a bespin hiccup yes -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ but it's always good to keep one's horizons open to hardware improvement rates, since it affects tunes and arrow hows it involve arrow? arrow processing in my mind has a quantifiable load on a standard pc improvements tell me how much can be done explicitly in arrow per second or frame or whatever -:- kermit [kermit@md30.netserver1.tower.com.ar] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes good evening hi kermit indeed what time is it ? Did you notice that someone actually had good things to say about x86 a few days ago? I didn't even respond to him because I knew he was soo out of his tr33.... =\ 8:50 pm here midnyte here... AOOOOOOOOOOOO 11p here 1am here 08:50pm At the U of Maryland thiere is this dorm, and on the railing of the front steps engraved there is the word "KERMIT" =p apperaently Jim Henson had bunked there... ?:| water: i'd like ur urls for self stuff k they're all reachable in two or three links from tunes language review may i ask a question ? sure i want to know if i understand what tunes is ... hmm. we can tell if you're close, anyway is tunes, basically, a language that will "run" on top of the hardware (not being technicall and stuff) ??? <_QZ> yes water: ok, i thot maybe u had something different http://www.sunlabs.com/research/self/ what i mean by "run" is that it will have a kind of OS (that belongs to tunes) that will do the trick self is a very small cs topic kermit: language = os in tunes 09:00pm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[216-164-230-247.s247.tnt7.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com]: No route to host) yeah ... <_QZ> kermit: tunes IS a language that will run in flat pmode. it has source code that it compiles to handle hardware no, kermit. really. <_QZ> kermit: and all the programs u run are in source code form and the language compiles them all into a single program i mean the os is built from the language, and is accessed without 'OS APIs' qz: not necessarily but it will have some kind of "core" OS ... right ?? built inside tunes ... right ? it shouldn't <_QZ> kermit: no oh ... every part of the os will be a language value right ... i see ... which isn't really true in any of today's systems. not even for GCC over Linux but you still have to deal w/the low level stuff (im asking in terms of implementation) ?? sure ok the low-level things will be expressed with the high-level abstractions is anything implemented yet ? just some tiny prototypes <_QZ> kermit: maybe in 10 years (: ok how about the desing ? -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[ppp-tnt-128.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer) water: is http://www.lsi.usp.br/~jecel/merlin.html the proper page? wheres "self/r"? -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-128.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes weird i was cut off water: is http://www.lsi.usp.br/~jecel/merlin.html the proper page? wheres "self/r"? he hasn't even announced the "self/r" idea to his own mailing list, let alone updated the site i've just been following the discussions on the self mailing lists ok, i have to leave now ... 09:10pm oh? bye all ok bye sorry, its too late for me. ): no prob i guess ill be back tomorrow ... bye -:- SignOff kermit: #TUNES ([BX] Automatically bored away) * water/#tunes reads some osopinion articles -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.167] has joined #Tunes hi kauf Shalom! Jim Little? not here abi only supports one-word keys? i haven't a clue, kaufmann no. Kewl. no, abi just doesn't know Jim Little abi jdl? water: i don't know huh? someone erased it, i guess water: I know. That's what I said. When it didn't answer, I thought it didn't. When it didn't answer, I figured it /did/. "when it /did/ answer", rather 09:20pm Slashdot is dl'ing at 43 bytes/second sheesh another guy had that prob today water: seemingly, jdl erased it, said something about not wanna a factoid hmm * hcf/#tunes is away: (food) 09:30pm * hcf/#tunes is back wb * water/#tunes is reading kaufmann's osopinion article now http://www.hom.net/~angels/atheism.html 09:50pm i really don't agree, but my perspective is much different Once I get done with MECCA, I'm going to code a Web browser wired to it, so that whenever you go to a site, it'll give you data on the page's author, so that you'll be able to tell which pages you can simply disregard... like this one. Jesus friggin' Christ bwa ha ha ha!! * water/#tunes has just resd the page kaufmann just passed the url for s/resd/read * water/#tunes repeats upon kaufmann's magical promise bwa ha ha ha!! actually, i'm quite a bit more open-minded than i jest you have to admit, that that page is a real, valid point of view water: does it now? yes, this 16-yr old has discovered for the first time the use of the hierarchy metaphor in his life i.e. the full extension of it as such, he will no doubt grow beyond it somehow heh which makes this point of view useful as a stepping stone that others will never consider of course, i could be wrong about the particular path of this person, but it is possible for someone to read or ponder it and derive the same path most people never realize that fully applying the hierarchy metaphor is inhumane and partially-applying it yields inconsistency and madness 10:00pm someday i will have to start that "toy" company with the slogan "technology for the mind" :) I was thinking of an ad like this: (the top of a bald head, on a white background) This is the most important sexual organ of your body. (as it scrolls down to reveal the geeky face with glasses) Learn to use it. (logo and slogan of whatever the ad is for) i was thinking about something entirely different though that's pretty funny What is the "toy" company? AHA! 23 bytes/second on Slashdot!!! it would be a company that made all kinds of things with the specific goal of expanding people's minds in new directions via play You can see the individual packets moving up and down the bloody cable!!!!!! the cable's bloody? * water/#tunes wonders what kaufmann's been doing with his time. You know what I mean. hehe you've got too many protocol streams on that one cable. you'd better cut off the irc to boost your bandwidth for http. ;) Bah. HTTP wasn't made for elaborate media content, for crying out loud. This is ridiculous. hehe. slashdot dl's fine for me! :P 10:10pm * hcf/#tunes chimes in, me to :P AHA!!! It finally finishes! mine only took 7 seconds or so Did you see this? A company claims an US patent for downloadable content media players of all kind. This is fresh. Just goes to show how horribly and inherently wrong the whole patent system is. yeah (This from a man who makes 50 reais an hour doing consulting work for the National Library's central Copy Rights Office, mind you.) oh <_QZ> Kaufmann: /. also works fine for me and me also hehe lol <_QZ> Kaufmann: oh and i have a very slow 31.2k connection * hcf/#tunes is @ 14.4 <_QZ> haha I figure it's the ISP's backbone lin k <_QZ> is there a really nice self environment like smalltalk? you could get squeak to act like self, i guess 10:20pm but no, not unless you have sunos <_QZ> does squeak have a nice IDE yes <_QZ> where can i get it? squeak? hmmm... squeak is a cool language descended from Smalltalk, at http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ or at http://www.squeak.org/ right now, the only good Self environments are Sun's original research stuff for SunOS there's JSelf for Self over the JVM, but it's not quite done the other self ports are not near done at all anyway, Squeak allows you to recompile the VM as long as you have a C compiler there's also a Squeak VM-modification HOWTO so that you could change Squeak VM into the Self VM and bootstrap the usual Self environment -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[200.224.105.167]) and the Squeak environment includes the Morphic GUI toolkit, which is a direct port from Self <_QZ> kewl netscapes bar went to 100% but the numbers are still counting up from 30% 10:30pm -:- Mr_Wrong [seanl@adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes Hi! I'm back. hey mw <_QZ> damn whats with all the stupid downloads mw: you seem to think i've read geb? <_QZ> why not a single tar.gz file qz: what stupid downloads? qz: you only need two for squeak <_QZ> i have to get a vm, 2 plugins, a .image file a sources tar.gz file and a changes files you don't need the 2 plugins or sources or changes vm + image <_QZ> what are the plugins and source for? it's a shame the Squeak community doesn't simplify that stuff -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.181] has joined #tunes they're experimental, like a lot of Squeak stuff Anyone know Jim Little's nick? mw: it's jdl That sounds right wb kauf qz: the plugins are for extra VM functionality qz: the sources file is just unnecessary 10:40pm qz: the changes file gives the application improvements from v2.0 to 2.4 <_QZ> ok the changes might include bug-fixes, but it also probably has more experimental code oh yes, there are included methods for throwing away parts of the environment that you don't want from within the Squeak system (safely) 10:50pm -:- jdl [jiml@ultra1.inconnect.com] has joined #tunes hey jdl Hi all What's up? -:- SignOff eStormy: #TUNES (eStormy has no reason) not much for now (I saw MW here just before getting ready to log off so I thought I'd pop by) <_QZ> well im down to about 100+ bugs to fix before brix will assemble <_QZ> already fixed about 100 qz: Have you bootstrapped brix before? abi: brix? it has been said that brix is an OS at http://www.qzx.com/brix or still not released yet <_QZ> jdl: yes * jdl/#tunes is looking at the Brix homepage <_QZ> i wish nasm was smart enuf to fix all my typos for me abi: brix is also still open binary okay, hcf. hehe jdl: Fare seemed pissed at your suggestion <_QZ> hcf: open binary? * water/#tunes whips out his disassembler. _QZ: well its not open source <_QZ> jdl: what did u say to fare? :) Whoops, sorry, was looking at the web... Kaufmann: yes :) ...not my intention! Really. QZ: suscribe tunes@tunes.org ? qz: Check out the mailing list, my "Unconventional, Eclectic Proposal" <_QZ> Kaufmann: no Fare's response really irked me <_QZ> jdl: ok water: Why? jdl: he completely refused to see your point jdl: on the grounds that he didn't want to see it 11:00pm water: True, but on the other hand it IS his project, he probably thinks I'm trying to hijack it... But I feel it's already been hijacked, and it's better this way anyway. in fact, he acted as exactly the sort of person you said was harming the development * jdl/#tunes grins wryly qz: My email is at http://lists.tunes.org/list/tunes/9907/msg00032.html qz: Fare's response is at http://lists.tunes.org/list/tunes/9907/msg00033.html <_QZ> thanks water: Well, if Fare wants to keep the TUNES discussion focused, that's okay with me. But if enough people are interested, I'll start a new list like the one I suggested. oh well - why make it "official" anyway?!? It's the people in general who make Tunes what it is... and it basically already is what you said it was. Besides, most people who come to Tunes already have some projects of the sort in their heads, and they /will/ use Tunes' space to discuss it. So why make it official? Let it be "officially" whatever it is. <_QZ> jdl: yer making prism right? Kaufmann: Good point... I guess I wanted to make it "official" so there would never be any "but that's not TUNES, go away" nonsense. Kaufmann: Also, I'm sure there's people (Mr. Wrong, perhaps) who would have a lot to contribute but don't participate because they don't know the true nature of the list. jdl: has Fare ever done that? * water/#tunes unfortunately has the feeling that he would feel much more at home on the tunes list than on any list that splits from it. Kaufmann: My project is enough on the fringes that I've felt a little of that. water: That's why I don't want to split, not really. The chemistry on the TUNES list is very good and should be left alone. But it is Fare's project, he gets to choose. Well - my interests aren't very Tunes-oriented anyway. (AI and the like) I basically hang around here because 1) I wanted to learn more about this stuff (especially Lisp) anyway, 2) because it's a good meme source, and 3) because it's fun. bs: _his_ project is the binding of an acronym to a bunch of html <_QZ> jdl: im not a tunes member and brix is not related to tunes in any way water: However, there's no reason TUNES and a split-off list couldn't coexist just fine. I don't think there'd be a ton of traffic to either. Kaufmann, qz: Exactly. jdl: i don't disagree, because your goals don't agree with the tunes goals. however, mine DO agree with them, and even go beyond them. water: yes. I stay on the TUNES list (with a somewhat guilty consience) for the same reason Kaufmann does... to justify my presence, I say Prism COULD be useful to TUNES -- and it could -- but it's not really my goal... someone else would have to do that part. 11:10pm jdl: perhaps its not ur project, but u that is useful to tunes jdl: but i (and others with a very good idea of what tunes should be) don't think that prism has anything to offer tunes that other systems we've considered could do better. Jim! I replied to your mail I think the issues you raise are perfect for Tunes MW: Hey, I was just reading it. :) mw: usually newbies don't act like experts just because they have opinions MW: Prism, or my recent proposal to the list? <_QZ> jdl: why must u suggest that tunes become something it already is :) I'm not on the list Actually, I was just looking at the AOP home page (the second URL I sent you) and there's a section on the FAQ about how AOP relates to reflection It says that reflection is a crude form of AOP :) water: I think Tril disagrees... mw: ignorant. mw: you misread mw: reflection is more powerful and dangerous than aop mw: the aop idea considers safety to be "more refined" not "more powerful" No, I didn't misread at all, you must think I'm reading something other than what I'm reading I have to agree with water... I don't see how reflection is a form of AOP... The characterization that reflection is about a crude aspect separation is one good way of thinking about it. Well... in a sense. That's a quote from the AOP FAQ from Xerox mw: no No, it's not a quote from the AOP FAQ? water, did you take classes in being abrasive? mw: i am a big aop fan, and have studied the subject very intensively Apparently not if you contradict the AOP faq I think anything a reflective system performs can be achieved by a non-reflective system, just as anything a recursive system does can be achieved by a non-recursive system. Recursion and reflection are just forms of abstraction, really... mw: the AOP FAQ is written from an entirely different perspective water: Does that make it wrong? Albeit powerful and program-centric ones. So perhaps that's how they mean reflection is a crude form of AOP, because it's an abstraction. (Although I don't think most people think of it that way :) ) mw: no, it makes the words inapplicable without good interpretation, which you are not capable of, being someone who hasn't digested the tunes ideas. I didn't say anything about Tunes. I was talking about reflection, and the Tunes project did not define what reflection is. mr_wrong: but you'll find that it does mw: it most certainly does The concept of reflection existed long before the Tunes project even started mw: i understand that So therefore the Tunes project did not define reflection. Tunes represents itself partially in terms of abstraction. err reflection. mw: yes, but we look at it in a different way from the rest of the community - with good reason That's weird, things in my peripheral vision are affecting what I type. * jdl/#tunes grins water: That doesn't mean that when I say reflection I mean reflection in the way that you see it in your private world. abi: glossary? bugger all, i dunno, jdl I mean reflection in the way that the CS community at large defines it. hcf, you here? i haven't a clue, jdl jdl: yes mw: just continue, you jerk The reason I talk about computer science terms using the definitions that the majority of the CS research community uses is so that I can read CS papers written by CS researchers and communicate with CS researchers. jdl: 1. dont msg me 2. is it that hard to find the url for? mw: no kidding hcf: I've been looking, no luck so far :b So, let's get back to reflection and AOP. 11:20pm mw: you still don jdl: r u braindead? 't understand why i insist on using the tunes definition mw: ok hcf: ? why the hostility? It's not linked from the main page, and I can't find it in the project pages either. water, I realize that it makes you very comfortable to believe that the reason people disagree with you is because they don't understand what you're talking about, but one of these days you're going to realize that your belief is not conducive to communication. jdl: uhm, try the papers page If nobody understands what you're talking about, you're not communicating. or the sitemap or most of the other pages hcf: Ah, found it... site map Thx mw: one of these days you'll join a project and not act like the expert on you r first day, but i doubt it mw: now about aop.... ? I don't know much about Tunes. I was just talking about reflection. abi: glossary is the TUNES glossary, available at http://tunes.org/papers/Glossary/index.html ok. and what about it? I never claimed to know much about tunes. MW: See the glossary for the TUNES definition of reflection. I already said what I had to say about reflection. what about reflection and aop? and it's not right i have papers that address that AOP-related papers from ECOOP99 and 98 and 97 If Tunes wants to redefine reflection, they should probably come up with a new name for it to avoid confusion. how AOP relates to meta-object composition Where can I download them, water? and how meta-object composition is just a subset of reflection let me see. MW: Do you have the URL for that AOP/reflection quote? MW: Never mind, found it... Ok. sorry, I was searching the ECOOP site Sokayu 11:30pm I think what they're saying is that reflection is a form of abstraction that isn't based on what I call "system abstraction" -- abstraction based on functional decomposition That this form of abstraction is the same as what AOP uses... what I call "domain abstraction" -- abstraction based on approaching the problem in a different manner I guess water's still looking for a URL, but I can't find papers for any of the ECOOP stuff online and I can't even find bibliographies later than 1996 it's somewhere way back in my url history, but definitely not easy to search for wait found the '99 papers for aop http://wwwtrese.cs.utwente.nl/aop-ecoop99/ Which paper is yours? None of them have your name on them no. none of them are mine I thought you said you had several papers? Or at least papers yes. in development From 99 98 and 97 But ECOOP99 has already happened no. those are others' papers How can a paper for ECOOP99 be in development? uhg Oh! I thought you meant you had written them it's not for ecoop My bad it's ok i wish they were ready for a conference Which one is a good one to read? none yet i have too much to write <_QZ> oh squeak is real cute :) No, I mean on the ECOOP site Time out :) Two discussions, ECOOP and Water's paper. oh Regarding the relationship between reflection and AOP hmm. <_QZ> got its own window system just a sec qz: several, actually qz: several systems, that is qz: Is that the Smalltalk variant? -:- Kaufmann is now known as Kaufmann_BRB * water/#tunes checks out his archives of papers qz: Or the LISP variant? (Can never remember... Oh I'm thinking of Scheme) qz: Smalltalk started out as a programming language, environment, and OS all rolled into one. :) Pretty cool stuff... Alan Kay is a personal hero :) <_QZ> jdl: heh, who does think alan kay is a hero :) 11:40pm <_QZ> s/does/doesnt/ -:- Kaufmann_BRB is now known as Kaufmann :) actually, i just downloaded all of them. i'll look through for good ones, if you like qz: My only problem with Smalltalk is that it's entirely dynamically typed. I'd rather catch as many bugs as possible at compile time instead of runtime. ...Maybe they've changed that by now. yes, i have all the aop papers from ecoop 97-99 jdl: there was a typed smalltalk system jdl: you can also make mop's for smalltalk that handle type info water: Really? Cool... is it still active? <_QZ> i'd rather catch all the bugs before compile time qz: Wouldn't we all... but better compile time than runtime. jdl: no, it was an experimental hack by a couple of researchers. Self picked up where it and others left off qz: Runtime implies possibility of *users* finding bugs... bad mojo ;) <_QZ> brix will run tests on the code while yer typing it :) qz: I need to learn more about Brix. It sounds interesting... why no inheritance? brix will make you the perfect blend of coffee while it boots ;) water: For only $999 + tax for the Mr.Coffee attachment :) <_QZ> ya the last binary made some ok coffee this next binary should almost be perfect mw: sorry, it's just too much to read through, and i don't know what kind of article would interest you * jdl/#tunes rofls abi: brix is also erotically stimulating to some okay, hcf. hehe I'm reading one on reflective programing from parc k those reflection papers are pretty old qz: So why no inheritance? you have to consider that reflection is a fairly immature field <_QZ> jdl: jecel pointed out to many problems with adding inheritance <_QZ> i had inheritance qz: What sorts of problems? <_QZ> besides brix isnt really OO That's odd, xpdf is missing all the ls and fs <_QZ> fragile base classes <_QZ> its more of a plugin OS qz: That can be handled by a robust versioning system. Once a class is "finalized" it isn't allowed to change, just updated. <_QZ> OO was too slow -:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-128.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[ppp-tnt-128.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer) Actually, I'm missing a hell of a lot more than ls and fs -:- _water is now known as water Hey, anyone want to implement a predicate-p function in LISP? qz: regarding is/isn't OO... there's enough definitions of OO to make that arguable. :) But that's okay I.e., a function that returns T if the function it receives as an argument can only return either T or NIL, and returns NIL otherwise. Just asking I can't fscking believe acroread is 5MB kauf: i think i have an e-book that can answer your question <_QZ> Mr_Wrong: gotta have acroread to read those intel docs tho :) 11:50pm or xpdf I'd rather use xpdf, but my fs, is, and ls are missing oh <_QZ> can xpdf read encrypted pdf's? Yeah The non-us version can well, i'm tired all <_QZ> uhh gnight water see you tomorrow <_QZ> so am i <_QZ> cya bye qz kauf: there's a way to do what you're talking about. it's on the net , too <_QZ> bye kauf: ask me sometime later bye -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-128.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] water: I'd think so. -:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) MW: So how did you find TUNES? I was researching free OSes a while back and saw it, then I noticed it recently in the list of channels on OpenProjects hmm... I came across it while researching the competition while writing my own (now defunct) OS long long ago. That was the beginning of Sphere... The antialiasing in acroread gives me a headache Well, I'll be off. What attracted your interest in TUNES? (I.e., why are you still here? There's a lot of free OS's) seeya K -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein. For more information regarding the good and evil of nationalism, contact Fare at OpenProjectsNet #Tunes. (Heh.)) Thanks for your support The conversation, mostly :) me too... lots of smart people here is there a comparable irc channel? Before you got here we were discussing a somewhat controversial email I sent to the TUNES list... http://lists.tunes.org/list/tunes/9907/msg00032.html [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0715 IRC log ended Thu Jul 15 00:00:01 1999