IRC log started Sat Aug 28 00:00:01 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0828
<eihrul> mom/dad? muahaha
<eihrul> my parents can't even figure out the television remote
<lar1> My dad used to be computer savvy in the 286 days
<eihrul> those were ugly days, indeed
<lar1> Yes
<lar1> I whish I could call intel and ask them
<lar1> Hmm this mp3 is gonna take 10 mins
<lar1> I want my cable modem... don't wanna wait till november
12:10am
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us745.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
<lar1> Hey hcf
<hcf> hoy lar1
<lar1> Do _you_ know where I submit a TUNES bug report?
<hcf> lar1: who wrote the code?
<lar1> I dunno.. its the FAQ so I assume Fare or Tril
<hcf> oh, i thot u were talkin bout the lll code
<hcf> fare or tril, pick 1 and go
<lar1> Fatal error while parsing token -- errno: 123456 Ambigous refrence connection to engligh interpertation server lost
<lar1> Ok
<lar1> :)
<hcf> error in previous error message, refrence is spelt reference
<lar1> Hmm, I had better check my english::textoutput lib
<hcf> and s/Ambigous/Ambiguous
<lar1> Perhaps I should give the ol spanish interpter a whirl
<lar1> Hola, me llamo lar1
<lar1> Como estas?
<hcf> and s/interpertation/interpretation/
<hcf> and s/engligh/english/
<lar1> Me gusta ingles.
<lar1> Hey, its late and I am not too good of a speller anyways
<eihrul> No me gusta el espanol.
<lar1> Estudio espanol en la clase.
<eihrul> si
<lar1> hcf:  Whats the differnece between the HLL and the LLL?
<hcf> lar1: theres a 2nd tunes faq @ http://www2.tunes.org/~bineng/faq.html
12:30am
<lar1> But the first one won't execute properly on my version of NeroWare (build 14)
<hcf> NeroWare?
<lar1> Its what my brain runs on :)
<hcf> i suppose u mean, neuroware
<lar1> Yes, yes
<lar1> I really must check the english interperter
<hcf> lar1: perhaps it'd be better to ask on the mlist
<lar1> I just feel that the FAQ doesn't provide an adquate explanation of what reflection _is_.
<lar1> I have no idea... its like a buzzword to me
<lar1> No me gusta buzzword.
<hcf> enuf spanish
<lar1> Ok :)
<lar1> I don't know enought hebrew to say much
<lar1> Nor french
<lar1> Hmmm
<lar1> Babelfish!
<hcf> just speak american
<lar1> Oh.. ok, same ol same ol... fine... I can do that.. :(
-:- gail [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
<hcf> gail: x to gr just speak american
<gail> hcf: sprechen Sie einfach Amerikaner
<hcf> gail: x from german sprechen Sie einfach Amerikaner
<gail> hcf: speak simply Americans
<hcf> close
<lar1> What languages can gail do?
<hcf> its just an interface to babelfish
<lar1> Ahh
<lar1> gail: x from spanish me gato se comio me tarea
<gail> lar1: me cat comio me task
<lar1> Does he respond to MSGs?
<hcf> he?
<hcf> gail is only a female name last i knew
<lar1> Whatever
<hcf> try it
<lar1> Yes :)
12:40am
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Leaving)
<lar1> Do you happen to know where there is a latin translator?
<hcf> On-line Latin word-list @ http://www.sunsite.ubc.ca/LatinDictionary/HyperText/index.html
<hcf> latin to english dict @ http://hermes.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Latin/
<lar1> Tahnks much
<lar1> abi: latin?
<abi> lar1: i haven't a clue
<hcf> http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rbeard/diction1.html may link to something good
<lar1> Can I tell abi for furture refrence?
<hcf> lar1: sure
<lar1> abi: latin is  http://www.sunsite.ubc.ca/LatinDictionary/HyperText/index.html |  http://hermes.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Latin/ |  http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rbeard/diction1.html
<lar1> abi: latin?]
<lar1> abi: latin?
<abi> latin is http://hermes.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Latin/
<gail> abi: latin is http://hermes.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Latin/
<abi> ...but latin is http://www.sunsite.ubc.ca/LatinDictionary/HyperText/index.html |  http://hermes.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Latin/ |  http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rbeard/diction1.html...
<hcf> gail: part #tunes
<gail> goodbye, hcf.
-:- gail [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has left #tunes []
<lar1> Why did you send gail away?
<hcf> they squabble
<lar1> Ah
<lar1> They are both infobot?
<hcf> abi: gail?
<abi> i think gail is what abi will be, ie a newer version of infobot (v0.44.2), being tested in #tunes_test
* lar1/#tunes thinks gail should be named ali
<hcf> hmm
<hcf> i was gonna stay w/ abi so to not mess anybody up
<hcf> and to make the transition ~transparent
<lar1> Good deal
<lar1> I am having _LOTS_ of fun with gail!
<lar1> Gail is also cool
<abi> okay, lar1.
<hcf> when gail becomes abi, gail will cease
<lar1> abi: gail is also abi
<abi> okay, lar1.
<lar1> Could you change the phrases, so like instead of just okay, nick its random like okie and okie dokey and sure thing and yup a roonie?
<hcf> i could, but i dislike things like 'yup a roonie'
01:00am
<lar1> But they are soooo much more fun
<hcf> plus, lots of things like 'yup a roonie' rnt good for foreigners
<lar1> How about like:  information stored, groked, understood, concept grasped
<lar1> But, but, but... yup a roonie!  Thats almost as good as cheese!
<lar1> abi: cheese?
<abi> lar1: no idea
<lar1> will abi's brain be transplanted?
<hcf> cleaned and transplanted
<lar1> So if I put a cheese factiod in it wount be transplanted?
<lar1> I know!  I'll tell gail!
<hcf> lar1: tell me if anything doesnt behave as u would think it should w/ gail
<hcf> dont tell gail
<hcf> tell abi
<lar1> Ok...
<lar1> Well gail should say yup a roonie, or alteast _somehting_ else then okay
<hcf> anything else?
<lar1> Hmm
-:- gail [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
<hcf> gail: infobot guide?
<gail> infobot guide is at http://www.tunes.org/~nef/abi/doc/guide.html
<abi> hmmm... infobot guide is at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~infobot/infobot_guide.html
<hcf> gail: part #tunes
<gail> goodbye, hcf.
-:- gail [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has left #tunes []
<hcf> read the guide for other functions
<lar1> So where do abi and gail run?
<lar1> ok
<lar1> Which one?
<hcf> they should be the same guide
<hcf> abi/gail run on bespin
<hcf> note:
<hcf>  disabled: karma, internic, weather, metar, nickometer, spell
<hcf>   enabled: search*, nslookup, traceroute*, babel, slash*, insult*
<hcf>    added*: C<->F, ...
<hcf> abi?
<abi> hcf?
<hcf> * denotes hcf has modified or replaced the original code, so these features will not act the same as they do with other infobots or as documented in the infobot guide.
<hcf> Plundis: u should ease up on the flood protection a tad
<lar1> How do you get the bot to run when you disconnect from bespin?  Does tril run them?
01:10am
<hcf> screen, heard of it?
<lar1> No
<hcf> got a bespin accnt?
<lar1> Yes
<hcf> do 'screen -S test'
<hcf> then control a d
<hcf> then 'screen -r test'
<lar1> ok, hold on bespin is being slow
<lar1> [screen is terminating]
<lar1> $ screen -r test
<lar1> There is no screen to be resumed matching test.
<lar1> $            
<lar1> plundis: Yes, please ease the flood protection
<hcf> u did control d, not control a d
<lar1> ctrl+a+d or ctrl+a crtl+d?
<hcf> hold ctrl, press 'a' then 'd'
<lar1> didn't work
<lar1> ok
<hcf> thats after doing something like screen -S test
<lar1> Yeah, I jsut didn't hit the stupid broken key hard enought
01:20am
<lar1> And those will stay until I close them, even if I disconnect?
<hcf> right
<hcf> they die of course if the host is rebooted
<lar1> Yes
<lar1> How often does that happen?
<hcf> not often
<hcf> only when tril changes distros or kernels
<lar1> Heh
<lar1> Where can I get the infobot source?
<hcf> abi: infobot
<abi> i heard infobot was at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~infobot
<lar1> thanks
<lar1> Yuck!  I need to clean my laptops keyboard and pointing device
<lar1> all oily
01:30am
<lar1> Whats the point of the karma part of an infobot??
<lar1> Why is weather disabled?
<hcf> karma iz a sorta vote/opinion thing
<hcf> lar1: can u find the 4 letter codes to use w/ weather?
<lar1> What 4 letter codes?
<hcf> like KAGC in the example
<hcf> radio stations
<lar1> Whats wrong with KAGC?
<hcf> "Try a 4-letter station code (see http://weather.noaa.gov/weather/curcond.html for locations and codes)"
<hcf> last i checked, i couldnt fine the list
<lar1> The serach functionality is quite weak
<hcf> of that site?
01:40am
<lar1> Of the infobot
<hcf> gail's?!!!
<hcf> it uses regexps
<lar1> altavista for blah, it don't work well
<hcf> oh that search
<lar1> Just gives you 3 urls with no summary
<hcf> thats some other guy's fault
* lar1/#tunes plans to rewrite that module
<hcf> dude, irc isnt a great place for spewing summaries
<lar1> Thats true
<lar1> Why isn't there a southwest moudule>
<hcf> try gail: scandb for <insert a regexp of ur choice>
<lar1> Who flys usair?
<hcf> somebody who put the code in probly
<lar1> Hmm
<lar1> What kind of stuff is in gails database?
<hcf> bunch o junk
<hcf> some of which picked up from #perl
<lar1> Ok
<lar1> How do I kill a screen
<hcf> it'll be erased b4 gail -> abi
<hcf> ctrl d
<hcf> or logout
<hcf> or (hehe) rm <somefile>
<hcf> where somefile is /var/run/screens/S-lar1/...
<lar1> ok
<lar1> Since when do people go around typing: ack? nak!  Methinks that jargon file is out of date...
<hcf> huh?
<hcf> ppl still use ack, nak
<hcf> iv seen ppl here use em
<lar1> Really?
01:50am
<lar1> So if I were babling on forever about somehing people would say ack?
<hcf> do u really wanna havta spell out acknowledge?
<hcf> why not instead spell out something shorter that i likely wont misspell?
<hcf> s/that i/that u/
<hcf> btw, using s/// on talk/irc systems is mentioned in the j-file too
<lar1> I just picture these paralell ports... 100101001ACK!ACK!ACK!101010101010NAK!ACK! hehe
<lar1> s/// is very common
<hcf> i agree ack & nak r a tad low level
<hcf> on bbs chat, me and friends used ack and nak instead of hi
<hcf> (nak for those ppl we didnt like)
<lar1> Was that in the day for 2400 baud modems... when you were happy for every single one of em?
<hcf> 14.4 i think
<lar1> I liked BBSes
<hcf> i prefer inet
<hcf> the idiots rnt local
<hcf> makes it a tad better
<lar1> Yes, but BBSes has some charm to them, although I do too perfer the internet
02:00am
<lar1> some of those jargon things are funny
<hcf> yeah, and?
<lar1> barfulation?
<hcf> this ur 1st time reading the j=file?
<lar1> Yes
<hcf> i got it off a bbs in circa 1994
<lar1> wuw
<lar1> Does the infobot tarball come with a config file?
<hcf> yeah
<hcf> look in the files dir
<hcf> btw, where r u reading the j-file from?
<hcf> as in, from foldoc or pure j-file?
<lar1> I am reading it from the infobot factoids directory
<hcf> foldoc is more uptodate
<abi> is more uptodate may be sought in foldoc at http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=is+more+uptodate
<lar1> ok
<lar1> If I want to shut off a feture do I jsut comment it out in the entry?
<hcf> yeah
<lar1> ok
<hcf> if i were to add timezone conversion to abi/gail, what should the syntax be?
<lar1> Hmm
<lar1> time 12:00am PST to EST
<hcf> btw, the "12:00am PST" part will flexable
<hcf> s/will/will be/
<lar1> Whatdo you mean?
<hcf> Date::Manip's ParseDate take a variety of formats
<hcf> s/take/takes/
<lar1> Ok
02:10am
<hcf> plus, the "time" part can be several different things using a regexp
<lar1> ok
<hcf> i'l use time <time from_tz> to <to_tz> for now
<lar1> ok, cool, I like that
<lar1> $ ./infobot
<lar1> syntax error at ./src/babel.pl line 46, near "sub forking_babelfish "
<lar1> syntax error at ./src/babel.pl line 54, near "}"
<lar1> BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at ./infobot line 42.     
<lar1> Whats that mean?
<hcf> syntax error
<lar1> How do I fix it?  It came broken!
<hcf> thank oznoid for that
<hcf> mail him a bug report ;)
<hcf> or perhaps the dude mentioned probly at the top of the Babel.pl file
<lar1> So should I just shut off bable in the config?
<hcf> up to u
02:20am
<lar1> I jsut want this to run, I'll report bugs when I grok this infobot stuff (and perl)
<hcf> users shouldnt need to grok so much, things shouldnt be replaced w/ such bugs
<hcf> s/replaced/released/
<lar1> Yes, like RH 6, gcc comes broken
<hcf> heh, i replaced 'replaced'
<lar1> hehe
<hcf> <-- tired
<lar1> Yes
<lar1> me too
<lar1> I just wanna get this bot working
<lar1> then bed
<hcf> mv Babel.pl Babel.pl_
<hcf> this way it wont get loaded
<lar1> Good deal
<lar1> Ahh USAIR don't work either
<hcf> how so?
<lar1> $ ./infobot
<lar1> Bareword "POST" not allowed while "strict subs" in use at ./src/UAFlight.pl line
<lar1>  24.
<lar1> String found where operator expected at ./src/UAFlight.pl line 24, near "POST 'h
<lar1> ttp://dps1.usairways.com/cgi-bin/fi'"
<lar1>         (Do you need to predeclare POST?)
<lar1> syntax error at ./src/UAFlight.pl line 24, near "POST 'http://dps1.usairways.com
<lar1> /cgi-bin/fi'"
<lar1> BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at ./infobot line 42.             
<hcf> my uaflight.pl ...
<hcf> s/my/mv/
<lar1> Yup
<lar1> It works
<lar1> Yay!
<lar1> Ali is alive
<lar1> A-L-I-V-E!
<hcf> now it'll just have mostly non-fatal errors ;)
<lar1> Heh
<lar1> And if it were to respond
02:30am
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-252-117.s371.tnt1.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
<lar1> Hey Alonzo
<AlonzoTG> =\
<lar1> Whats up?
03:00am
<AlonzoTG> $120 towing fee =((((
<AlonzoTG> fucking extortion!!!
<lar1> Wow, that sucks!
<hcf> AlonzoTG: ok uv reached ur non-os/pl topic'd noise limit
<hcf> now talk bout OSes or PLes
<AlonzoTG> I think I figured out my linking problem....
<AlonzoTG> =P
<AlonzoTG> It all has to do with file formats...
<hcf> AlonzoTG: so u have no excuse, so why isnt ur prototype finished yet? ;)
<AlonzoTG> all I have to do is develop some software to manipulate the various file formats....
<AlonzoTG> Now the problem is how to manipulate instruction streams (strings of binary numbers) without breaking them. =\
<AlonzoTG> x86 sucks
<hcf> choose a non-x86 platform
<hcf> or stop bitching ;)
<lar1> Alpha!
<AlonzoTG> =)
<lar1> 68000
<AlonzoTG> I was musing over what it would take to add a floppy drive to my N16...
<AlonzoTG> =P
<AlonzoTG> or SNES
<lar1> Easy to add to a gameboy
<lar1> methinks
<AlonzoTG> then I would have to add a keyboard...
<lar1> Yes
>>> hcf [nef@me-portland-us745.javanet.com] requested VERSION  from TUNES
<AlonzoTG> my playstation already has serial/paralell...
<AlonzoTG> =P
03:10am
<AlonzoTG> just have to burn a rom...
<lar1> I wish eprom burners were sub-bazillion dollars
<lar1> Time for nighty night methinks
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES ((ravenos.dhs.org -- up at 6am PDT) ((of course there isn't much there)) :))
<AlonzoTG> I mean burn a CD...
03:20am
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (zzz)
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<Cyreb> hi, what is this channel
<ProGuy> Tunes
<Cyreb> music
<Cyreb> ??????????????????????????????????????????????/
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<ProGuy> noo... check www.tunes.org
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<ProGuy> What are you doing?
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> dddddddd
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> dd
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> dd
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
<Cyreb> d
-:- SignOff Cyreb: #TUNES (Read error to Cyreb[cbr2-ppp-021.tpgi.com.au]: EOF from client)
<ProGuy> What a plaque
05:00am
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-:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr])
<hcf> binEng: u here?
<binEng> yup
<hcf> is #tpp being used?
<binEng> yes
<hcf> last couple of days abi has been the only one in there when i checked
<binEng> strange
08:30am
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-214-60.s314.tnt3.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
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* ElGato`/#tunes just got back from his morning run :D
<ElGato`> hi
<hcf> ElGato`: lengua done yet?
<hcf> (btw, im pretending to be a s_r sort of nagging questioner)
<ElGato`> hah
<ElGato`> well i was trying to write a macro header that would let me create finite state machines for a lexer
<ElGato`> that proved quite hard with c macros
<ElGato`> im another .001% closer to understanding reflection
<hcf> so that means ur at .002% right? 
<ElGato`> yeah
<ElGato`> i must talk to fare about reflection now
<ElGato`> i think there should be an equal amount of compile time reflecton as run time reflection
<ElGato`> and in the language not in another tool
<hcf> isnt using a separate tool meta-prog'ing not refl?
<ElGato`> well considering they call em META-programs i guess so
<ElGato`> but i still think it should be in the language
<ElGato`> like a *good* macro system
08:50am
<Fare> hum
<ElGato`> uh oh
<ElGato`> :D
* ElGato`/#tunes braces him self
<hcf> ElGato`: do /nick {ElGato`} ;)
<ElGato`> :D
-:- ElGato` is now known as {ElGato}
* {ElGato}/#tunes is still waiting for fare to respond
<hcf> Fare: respond
<{ElGato}> :(
<hcf> braced urself for nothing
-:- {ElGato} is now known as ElGato
<ElGato> :\
* hcf/#tunes is away: (walking my cat)
<ElGato> heh
09:00am
* hcf/#tunes is back
<ElGato> meow
<Fare> I don't think spanish cats say "meow";
<ElGato> i think cats don't speak spanish at all (with the exception of me)
<ElGato> fare
<ElGato> watcha think about my previous statement
<ElGato> run time reflection opposed to compile time reflection
<Fare> what about it?
09:20am
<ElGato> well macros have been somewhat demonized in here it looks like
<ElGato> i was wondering what you thought about the subject
<Fare> demonized?
<Fare> no, macros are great.
<Fare> well, depends on what kind of macros.
<ElGato> :D
<ElGato> scheme macros?
<Fare> but cpp, m4, etc, macros, are not.
* ElGato/#tunes was thinking about what iepos said about pure semantics
<ElGato> would you consider forth mostely semantics?
<Fare> uh?
<ElGato> well forth syntax is so minimal
<Fare> yes, and?
<ElGato> would you consider it mostely semantics?
09:30am
<Fare> what do you mean?
<Fare> yes, it has mostly trivial syntax that allows to focus on semantics
<Fare> unhappily, it has too low-level a semantics
<ElGato> yes
<ElGato> i am studying pop-11 right now
<ElGato> so far as i can see the user stack in pop11 is just a place to store pointers to lists
09:40am
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<ElGato> oic
<ElGato> the other problem i see with forth is fixed arity functions
09:50am
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<water> hey all
<sr> hi
<Fare> lo
10:20am
<water> i just got home from work
<sr> was work fun?
<water> uhhh... no
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<overfien> y0h
<water> hey
<abi> hoy, water
<sr> y0h
<Fare> hum
10:30am
<water> ?
10:40am
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-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-204.tscnet.net])
<Fare> !
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<Fare> !
<water> heh
11:30am
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<water> hey liar
<water> btw all, i'm going to sea again in a few days
<hcf> water: will u be able to continue ur papers work?
<binEng> anybody that want to play tetrinet?
<water> only on real paper. my laptop is still waiting for new parts
<hcf> water: how goes the contacting of the arrow logic ppl?
<water> i've been really busy this week. i haven't got together all my material in a way that i'm comfortable with presenting to them
11:40am
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<binEng> eihrul: you wanna play tetrinet?
<eihrul> don't have a good client for it
<binEng> what platform?
<eihrul> linux
<binEng> I dunno about that
<eihrul> they have an absolutely horrible ncurses client
<eihrul> and then an even worse prospect, a gnome client
11:50am
<liar> hcf: how old are u? and do u have a job?
<water> hcf: Cora is nice
<hcf> water: yep it is, Fare found it, not me which is nice for a change ;)
<water> lag
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<Fare> hum
* hcf/#tunes is away: (afk)
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<eihrul> mmm... cora
12:00pm
<liar> kewl, i had a kernel panic in brix
<Fare> kewl?
<abi> kewl are we bashing alonzo again?
<liar> abi: yes
<liar> Fare: ya now i know it works
<water> Fare: why shouldn't someone want to explicitly handle memory-allocation?
<water> (in certain cases, i.e. for implementation optimization purposes)
<liar> did u guys hear about that girl in england that chewed on her hair?
<liar> she died from a 2 foot long by 4" thick hair ball in her stomach
<AlonzoTG> liar!!!
<AlonzoTG> =P
<AlonzoTG> sick thought though...
<liar> its true
<liar> it was on the news
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us717.javanet.com])
12:20pm
<Fare> water: indeed, why shouldn't one? that's why it's *allowed*
<Fare> next question?
<water> i just wanted to gauge your opinion on that
<Fare> similarly, some people want direct disk access under linux, so that's allowed.
<Fare> but that doesn't mean there no filesystem!
<water> i'm currently trying to figure out limitations of re-write systems
<Fare> no particular limitation as such
<Fare> "re-write systems" is too generic a notion
<water> well, sure, but in a higher-order languages, it may help to never allocate memory for an object or for many objects
<Fare> ?
<water> objects which are used once as the results of computations and are promptly thrown away
<Fare> that's optimization of linear object storage
<Fare> read about linear logic?
<water> no kidding
<Fare> "no kidding"?
<water> of course
<Fare> well, that's a standard application of it.
<Fare> btw, even in rewrite logic, linear terms have been studied a lot
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12:40pm
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<water> sorry, i was cut off
<water> fare: yes, i know
<water> i was also considering having large data structures allocated and treating the structure as well as its members as first-class language objects without having to manage the memory for those "contained" objects
<water> which does fit into the linear logic storage idea, but only in a static way, as far as i can see
<water> Fare: are you ever going to settle on a Lisp that you would not object to developing into Tunes?
<Fare> yup
<water> when?
<Fare> now
<water> ok, what's the choice (or range of choices)?
<water> hello?
12:50pm
<water> do you even have criteria for improving existing implementations (as it shouldn't be too difficult)
<water> ?
<water> well, thanks for the sarcasm, at any rate
<liar> could i talk one of u into modifying bochs to use single letter commands and change stupid stuff like "x /100wx 0x1234" to "x 100 0x1234"?
01:00pm
-:- SignOff overfien: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> anyone know of a good nintendo64 emulator?
<liar> an n64?
<water> yeah. do you know the name of one or a site where i can get one?
<liar> u can pick one up at almost any store
<water> no, not bleem
<water> bleem _is for psx, right?
<liar> i was talking about the n64 machine, it emulates n64 games quite well :)
01:10pm
<water> gggrrrr
<water> n/m
01:20pm
<water> bbl
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01:40pm
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<liar> eihrul: u here?
<eihrul> yep
<binEng> tetrinet, anyone? liar?
<liar> binEng: starcraft?
<binEng> no, tetrinet :)
<liar> eihrul: if i have a dpl0 cs and eip on the stack and i do an iretd it doesnt need an ss:esp on the stack too right?
<binEng> liar: we need one more to get even teams
<liar> binEng: i am in teh same situation as eihrul
<binEng> :P
<liar> binEng: but he is one up on me cuz he atleast knows what tetrinet is
<eihrul> liar: if you're not returning to the same pl, i'd say you would
<liar> im want to iretd from a cs0 to a cs0
<eihrul> hrmm, lemme check manual
<eihrul> rrr... duh
<eihrul> that should have registered with me
<eihrul> you shouldn't need the ss:esp stuff on the stack if it's same priv level
<eihrul> since no stack switch occurred
<liar> ok
<eihrul> but then methinks there are weird segment options where you can unconditionally force stack switches, even between same priv levels
<liar> few more minutes and ill be testing my keyboard methods
<eihrul> ack, that could be a problem for me...
<liar> why?
03:00pm
<eihrul> if a syscall gets preempted
<liar> if it gets preempted it will push cs:eip
<eihrul> yeah, but my structures assume ss:esp gets pushed :)
<eihrul> so i have to make another structure
<liar> i was making a direct call from the kernel into the scheduler and forgot to make it a far call
<liar> what structures?
<eihrul> er hrmmm... maybe i don't :)
<eihrul> since ss:esp gets pushed way down at the bottom
<eihrul> all the relative offsets after it should be the same
<eihrul> that's a good thing
<liar> after entering the scheduler i save the registers and then store esp0 in the thread entry
<eihrul> yes... i know
<liar> and when i want to reload that thread i get esp0 from the thread entry and pop the regis
<eihrul> it's just the my struc definitions assumed ss/esp were on stack
<eihrul> but that shouldn't be a problem actually
<liar> why would u be accessing them
<eihrul> since it's strategically placed and ss/esp pops it off
<eihrul> i'm not accessing them... it's just they are declared in my struc dude!
<eihrul> er iretd pops it off, brain fart
<eihrul> so long as i don't access them, i shouldn't have to change any of my code at all
<liar> ahh much better, just cleaned my mouse :)
<liar> only yer syscalls should be reading the ss3:esp3 from the stack
<liar> and they all expect to be called from userspace so...
03:10pm
<eihrul> well it's when things get preempted when they're already at cpl0 that was worrying me, thas all
<liar> ya
<liar> hmm my damn thd_free function is what caused the kernel panic
<liar> im tired of debugging code, wanna take over brix for me?
<eihrul> i still need to write my kernel first :P
<eihrul> why not give control of brix back over to qzx? 
<eihrul> see if his cancer magically disappeared by now...
<liar> eh?
<eihrul> twas a joke
<liar> qzx?
<abi> qzx is run on a 33.6?
<Fare> hum
<eihrul> er qz i mean
<Fare> liar: the ss:esp is only saved when there is a priority change
<Fare> liar: so no priority change, no ss:esp
<eihrul> i just said that
<Fare> typically, if you want a uniform calling interface at a point, you "preallocate" a space for them and pre-store them manually on it.
<Fare> rats, that does not work.
<liar> iretd pops the elfags too
<Fare> well, then, you suck.
<Fare> that's the reason why CPL0 is a real mess
<Fare> I hate the intel x86 design.
<eihrul> it was designed?
<liar> there is nothing wrong with the x86 design
<Fare> s/you suck/sucks to be you/
<Fare> btw, Black Holes suck!
<eihrul> l: cept that it doesn't have one
<AlonzoTG> om
<Fare> eih: :)
<eihrul> which could explain why there's nothing wrong with it
<AlonzoTG> or does the rest of the universe push you in?
<AlonzoTG> =P
<Fare> "who pushed me in?"
<liar> im gonna go take a nap
<AlonzoTG> da black hole...
03:20pm
* liar/#tunes is GONE ( sleeping )
<binEng> AlonzoTG: wanna play tetrinet?
<binEng> or someone else? ...maybe?
<Fare> what's tetrinet?
<binEng> network version of tetris, but much more fun
<eihrul> without a single good linux client
<binEng> :)
03:30pm
<AlonzoTG> windoze 3.11
03:40pm
<binEng> sorry
03:50pm
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<Fare> i know other network versions of tetris...
<eihrul> aren't they all strictly for X11?
04:00pm
<Fare> don't remember, but I think one had a text mode interface
<eihrul> that'd be tetrinet
<Fare> dunno
<Tril> tetrinet has lots of gratphical clients!
<Tril> oh nevermind you are looking for a text
04:10pm
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* liar/#tunes is BACK [away time = 1h:13m:38s]
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<k-man> hi
<abi> hoy, k-man
<k-man> hi, abi
<abi> hoy, k-man
<k-man> are any of you guys KDE experts
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05:00pm
<Fare> hum.
05:20pm
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<Downix> hey
* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on Downix
05:30pm
* Fare/#Tunes presses the AlonzoTG key
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<Fare> water: are you salted?
<water> salty? :)
<water> sure
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05:50pm
<water> Fare: any answer about the Lisp selection or criteria thereof?
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<water> hey hcf
<hcf> hoy water
<water> hcf: thanks for today's links
<Downix> man, it sucks being the only MIPS guy in a room full of Alpha nuts
<water> er...
<hcf> water: todays?
<water> my casio runs on a mips
<water> hcf: the ones in the topic
06:00pm
<hcf> water: theyve been there
* Downix/#tunes has a MIPS desktop design
<water> ah
<water> cool
<water> hcf: Cora and that e-groups posting
<Downix> hmm
* Downix/#tunes keeps wondering why everyone is moving to Alpha CPU's now that Compaq's discontinuing them
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<eihrul> they're not discontinued yet... and even so, the hardware still has a good few years of life
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<ultos> hmm
<water> hi, ult
<water> ultima, that is ;)
<Downix> eihrul:  Well, to be honest, I don't see much of a future in them, especially now that MIPS technologies has the Alpha and StrongARM's core devel team on their side.
<eihrul> down: but aren't alphas cheaper?
<ultos> MIPS is dead tho
<Downix> eihrul:  Alphas?  Cheaper than MIPS?  You're joking!
<Downix> ultos:  They are?
<eihrul> i've never bought either... :)
<ultos> Well, basically
<ultos> the architecture is flawed
<ultos> It's hit a rather nasty performance barrier
<Downix> ultos:  New MIPS CPU released exactly 8 hours ago, the one before that, 4 days ago
<ultos> That is one of the reasons SGI is going x86
<Downix> ultos:  I wouldn't say so.  And SGI's dumped x86 to go with it's MIPS designs
<ultos> I would say so. =)
<ultos> Lemme see a 1k mips machine that is faster than a 1k x86
<Downix> ultos:  seen it
<ultos> Gee,I haven't
<Downix> ultos:  You haven't looked, have you?
<ultos> In fact...I've never seen a decent yet cheap mips machine...ever...
<Downix> ultos:  You don't get out much, do you?
<Downix> ultos:  Go to Staples, they have quite a few of them
<ultos> Downix: You have a bold colon
<ultos> Downix: Pity, I haven't seen a one.
<ultos> Oh, and I assume we are talking computers here, not routers.
<Downix> ultos:  Sorry about that, I bought one a few days ago.  My Casio runs very nicely.
* Downix/#tunes is talking computers, yes.  
<ultos> nor calculators
<water> as does mine
* Downix/#tunes waves his PDA in front of ultos
<ultos> calculator.
<water> sorry, but that pda runs linux. it's no calculator
* ultos/#tunes shrugs
<ultos> running linux does not a computer make.
<Downix> ultos:  a calc that runs Linux, nuh uh
<ultos> a ti92 can run linux
<ultos> so can Palm Pilot
<water> hardly
<Downix> ultos:  What does a computer make?  i have a modem, hard drive, video, sound, what else do I need?
<hcf> abi: tao?
<abi> tao is an expression of the Water or tao, the (so-called) ultimate os at http://www8.pair.com/mnajtiv/tao.html
06:10pm
<hcf> anyone feel like doing a review for that tao os?
<Downix> ultos:  And I'd note that the sub-$1000 Cobalt Cube is ALSO a MIPS computer
<ultos> Downix: Gee golly.
<water> hcf: hmm. why not you?
<ultos> \sarcasm{Im impressed.}
<Downix> ultos:  And my own company has a sub-$500 MIPS computer design we're producing
<hcf> water: i'm not qualified to do reviews
<Downix> ultos:  So you call it a dead design, when it's shipping more CPU's than any other RISC design?
<water> hcf: why not?
<ultos> Downix: I'd -really- like to see a real application of mips
<ultos> a calendar doesn't count.
<Downix> ultos:  I've seen a lot of them. 
<water> the squeak smalltalk vm runs on the casio :) (major selling point for me)
<Downix> water:  Same with me.
<Downix> ultos:  Plus MIPS Technologies is growing the design, new cores, better performance, MIPS is hardly dead.
* water/#tunes high-fives his fellow Squeaker, Downix.
<ultos> Downix: Wow. A really fast calculator.
<ultos> I'm impressed dude.
<Downix> ultos:  Ya know what, the 8086 was first introduced as the core to.... a calculator!
<eihrul> the tiXX's are quite slow however... :)
<ultos> Downix: no
<eihrul> so a faster calculator is always a plus
<ultos> Downix: 4004 was the calculator
<ultos> eihrul: MIPS price:performance ratio sucks
<ultos> thats the problem
<Downix> ultos:  Yes.  I have an original IBM punch-proof calc
<eihrul> i'm not contesting that
<ultos> sure you can get a 1000$ computer that has the speed of...a 486
<Downix> ultos:  a $5 CPU w/ equal performance to a 300Mhz Pentium 2?
<Downix> ultos:  Um, you smoking weed?
<ultos> No, but your smoking crack.
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<eihrul> you're
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* Plundis/#tunes is gone. Gone since Tue Aug  3 18:38:00 1999
* Crimson/#tunes is gone. Gone since Sat Aug 14 22:23:00 1999
<Downix> ultos:  Hardly.  IDT released it's latest MIPS CPU ($5 in batches of 500 or more) 3 weeks ago
<ultos> Downix: Yeah. Its performance is about 386/16
<Downix> ultos:  SPECfp95 of 12 isn't 386 range dude
<ultos> no
<ultos> its about 286
<Downix> ultos:  You're a moron dude.  Pentium Pro 200 was at SPECfp95 of 4.9
<ultos> Um, no.
<Downix> ok, everyone, ultos just proved he's a moron.  Please make notes and act accordingly.
<ultos> It was 61.9
<Downix> ultos:  That's SPECfp92, not SPECfp95
<Downix> ultos:  They changed the scale once CPU's were getting 200+ numbers
* ultos/#tunes laughs
* Downix/#tunes places a label on ultos' head, stating "Hello, this is a moron who doesn't know the difference between 1992 and 1995.  Please be forewarned."
06:20pm
* ultos/#tunes places a label on Downix's head, stating "LoSeR"
* Downix/#tunes has even heard that SPEC's doing it again, SPECxx2000
<Downix> ultos:  ok, let's change this into the same spec scale now:  SPECfp92 of 128
<Downix> ultos:  Now, that IS a decent CPU, would you not agree?
<Downix> ultos:  When is the last time you actually, like, LOOKED AT THE DAMNED PRICE TAG?????
<ultos> Downix: Dude...sigh...
<ultos> You'll have to get used to me. I'm a helpless troll.
<ultos> Downix: Though...you can't compare a 300mhz MIPS CPU to a 300mhz pII too well
<Downix> ultos:  No sigh, you're the guy who really doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.  I priced out high-end MIPS CPU's only 3 days ago, $150 for a CPU that's equal to 500Mhz Alpha chips.  
<Downix> ultos:  No you can't.  See, one area the MIPS has an issue in is the lack of a decent compiling routine.  Only SGI makes good compilers for MIPS, and they're not free
<ultos> And idt's page says that the 5$ cpu kinda sucks
<ultos> Well, it's more of an embedded controller, not really something I'd want to use in my desktop.
<Downix> ultos:  I didn't say it was great, the int score on it is 486-range.  But the fp is decent enough
<ultos> 2.5k cache
<Downix> ultos:  I didn't say it was.  A decent desktop MIPS CPU you'd find from vendors like QED
<ultos> 33mhz top speed
* Downix/#tunes nods
<ultos> hmm, i wonder how that compares to a 99mhz i8051
<Downix> ultos:  never used an i8051 nor seen it's specs
<ultos> Downix its a nifty CPU
<ultos> its actually not -that- braindead.
<Downix> ultos:  Got a url for info on it?  I love to collect data on CPU tech.
<ultos> www.dalsemi.com has some info
<Downix> ultos:  You should see my collection of 6509 sheets
<ultos> they have a 33mhz machine cycle i8051 processor that does 4 cycles per machine cycle, so they compare it to a 99mhz i8051.
<ultos> www.8052.com has some tutorials and documentation 
<Downix> ultos:  Interesting.  My preferred CPU right now is the RM7000 myself, with it's dual-CPU core design.
<ultos> Downix: What's the target for that?
<Downix> ultos:  Desktop/Workstation.
<Downix> I'm planning on using it in my own design, as an upgrade to the RM5270 and RM5720 CPU's
06:30pm
<ultos> Hmm, I still like Alpha.
<ultos> Unfortunately, it looks like Compaq's gonna fsck it
<Downix> I like Alpha's too, they're some of the best MIPS designs out there
<ultos> hah
<Downix> ultos:  Alpha's are derived from MIPS, well, the early models are.  Just look at the instruction set, identical.  Same with the register calls
<Downix> even the 21064's bus is identical
<ultos> Downix: Well, Alpha is easier to find in a generic package
<ultos> Downix: I haven't seen too many MIPS machines that are just generic boxen
<Downix> ultos:  Well, I'm creating one.
<ultos> They tend to be specialized...routers...pda's...graphics workstations...
<Downix> ultos:  I know, a shame I feel
<ultos> (And SGI's boxen are too fscking expensive)
* Downix/#tunes nods nods nods nods nods
<Downix> I have an old Acer MIPS box tho
<Downix> too bad they dumped it for Alpha
<ultos> what exactly are you working on?
<Downix> ultos:  A few things, but the initial product (the only one I've finished the design of) is a simple PCI-based MIPS computer.  Base Mhz rating of 250, up to 333Mhz.  
<Downix> ultos:  Actually, MIPS-based motherboard, to be precise
<ultos> Downix: When do you expect it to be available?
<ultos> Downix: A complete system anyway
<Downix> ultos:  Funding pending, by the end of October.
<eihrul> cool
<Downix> ultos:  Nothing too fancy for a system, have to use SCSI tho over IDE due to the lack of a southbridge.  Improves performance tho
<water> Fare: still there? awake?
<ultos> Downix, video?
06:40pm
<Downix> ultos:  We have a few options avail.  S3 and nVidia are two good choices, depending on if you want price or performance.
<ultos> Downix: Ah, so your planning on built-in controller?
<Downix> ultos:  Not for video, sound, but yes on SCSI, USB and Firewire
<ultos> hmm, whats your expected price?
<Downix> $500 for a basic system.  Goes up depending on options
<ultos> hmm
<eihrul> ya?
<Downix> yes
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> wut OS?
<Downix> Well, I could do it for $200 w/o a HD
<liar> brix
<Downix> AlonzoTG:  Your choice, Linux, BSD or WindowsNT
<Downix> AlonzoTG:  But for NT you gotta add $40,000 to the list price.
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<liar> what is a good combination of toppings for a pizza?
<Downix> garlic, tomato, hamburg
<sr> pineapple and potato
<liar> potato??
06:50pm
<Downix> sr:  oo, good one.  Done that
<liar> u guys ever been to hard rock cafe?
<sr> liar: what's the best pizza place where you are?
<liar> they have this onion and chicken pizza
<liar> pizza hut
<ultos> potato is good on pizza
<ultos> (seriously)
<Downix> liar:  eww, onions!  One of the evil things which repell me.  (allergy)
<sr> Downix: it's even more fun to be lactose intolerant
<liar> i hate onions too cept for the artificial onions on big macs
<Downix> sr:  Oh man
<Downix> liar:  hehe
<liar> but they were pretty good on that pizza
<sr> hahaha "artificial onions"
<liar> well i dont think pizza hut has potatoes
<liar> what goes good with sausage and pineapples?
<Downix> hmm... garlic or perhaps chicken
<liar> ill just get my regular
<Downix> ok
<liar> sausage pineapple anchoives
<ultos> woohoo
<ultos> i killed my own priest
<ultos> hehehe
<Downix> anchivies, another allergy
<Downix> ultos:  uh, ok
<water> tunes?
<abi> hmmm... tunes is http://www.tunes.org, a free reflective computing system or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers or discombobulated or obnubilated
<ultos> hehehe
<liar> i can order a pizza faster than anyone else. just call em up and they know what i want
<liar> the power of technology
<Downix> liar:  I probably got you beat, I just hit an icon on my desktop and it's faxed to them automatically
<liar> can u be online at the same time?
<Downix> liar:  Yes, e-fax
<sr> downix: don't you have a digital connection?
<Downix> liar:  my local pizza place has an e-mail account that you can email it to and it automatically prints it up on a fax machine
<Downix> sr:  Not anymore
<liar> ya but email is slow
<sr> then brix is the email of the OS world? :P
<Downix> well, it works
* Downix/#tunes slaps sr, brix isn't that bad
<liar> i can dial 7 digits and say "yes" when they ask for my regualr faster than it would take for yer email to arrive and be printed
<Downix> hehe
<Downix> ok, you're right
<sr> downix: you've used it?
<sr> liar ask for a complimentary severed finger on the pizza
<liar> haha
<water> Downix: instant messaging
<Downix> sr:  no, but anything is faster than Windows NT 3.1 on a 4-meg of RAM 386
07:00pm
<sr> oh well, Windows NT reached perfection in version 2.2
<sr> after that it went downhill
<Downix> sr:  EVen then it wasn't worth it
<water> WinNT was best when it was known as os/2
<Downix> water:  Agreed, except it was only half OS/2, the other half is OpenVMS
<sr> well, i guess you're right, liar said brix would run comfortably in 4 megs of ram
<Downix> water:  OpenVMS is better than NT
<water> yeah, i forgot that
<sr> Downix: are  you running AmigaOS?
<Downix> water:  Someone locked OS/2 and VMS in a room, and NT is the mutant hybred that came out
<Downix> sr:  Not right now.  I'm on my Cyrix system right now
<sr> i wonder what would happen if you locked BeOS and Linux in a room?
<Downix> sr:  You'd end up with Linux
<Downix> sr:  GNU licence, remember?
<water> mmm... open-source beos
<sr> that would be sweet
<Downix> water:  I'd love that, but it won't happen
<Downix> water:  So Linux is instead trying to beat BeOS at it's own game.
<ultos> erm
<ultos> Unfortunately, Linux isn't gonna beat BeOS for some time.
<Downix> ultos:  I'm not so sure.  Linux is going well, and at this rate of development, I'd give it 2-3 years
<sr> but X will always be slower than the BeOS gui
<ultos> Downix, maybe.
<ultos> But right now both the video and sound architecture sucks
<sr> ultos: what's your favorite OS?"
<Downix> ultos:  THen use Berlin, Nano-X, GGI, some other, smaller GUI
<ultos> sr: CP/M
<sr> GGI will fix that, hopefully
<Downix> sr:  I agree
<Downix> hehe
<ultos> Downix: Berlin does nothing, Nano-X is just X, and GGI isn't really a gui.
<Downix> ultos:  nano-X isn't X, it's a GUI similar, but not quite the same as X
<sr> X should use GGI :)
<water> GGI = graphical programmer interface
<Downix> ultis:  And Berlin works, kinda.  It's still under devel, but making swift progress.
<sr> man, 80s music is the best
<ultos> Downix: well, last time I checked...it didn't even have a terminal emulator...
<sr> wtf is Berlin?
<ultos> sr: It's a wannabe-BeOS-gui
<Downix> ultos:  It does now.
<Downix> sr:  It's a GGI-based GUI.  http://www.berlin-consortium.org
<ultos> It's GGI now? 
<sr> Downix: is it meant to replace X?
<ultos> hypocrites
* ultos/#tunes cackles
<Downix> ultos:  it's always been GGI, at least since the original coders quit
<water> is berlin based on threads, then?
<liar> OH MY GOD
<ultos> Downix...no...Berlin was OpenGL
<Downix> sr:  No, it's ment to be an option
<ultos> Mesa to be exact
<sr> ultos: is that why you like BeOS? because you have access to the source? :)
<liar> i just spent ten minutes on the phone with pizza hut
<Downix> ultos:  It's still Mesa, but it can use GGI now as well
<ultos> sr: I don't like BeOS
<eihrul> ult: ggi + opengl
<Downix> liar:  lol!
<liar> that girl was dummer than dirt
<water> lol
<Downix> water:  Yes
<liar> it was clearly here first day at work and she obviouslt forgot to take her mdeication today
<liar> i had to respell my name 10 times
<Downix> hehe
<liar> i had to spell my address several times
<sr> "B-R-A-N-D, Brand" "huh? Brent?"
<liar> then she had to call her manager cuz the computer wouldnt accept it
07:10pm
<Downix> fun
<liar> jefferson road
<liar> like the friggin president 
<Downix> hehe
<liar> then i said sausage, pineapple and anchoives
<water> downix, but then berlin would not include a thread with every process like the Be GUI does, unless you required apps to be adjusted to use the Berlin libraries. you'd have to basically port everything
<eihrul> nasty
<liar> then he repeated back 3 different toppings to me
<Downix> water:  you would, yes.  At least right now, they've got a plan for re-directing X-lib apps
<Downix> oh man
<liar> i was like NO and told her again
<liar> then she goes ok: sausage pineapple and green peppers
<liar> NOOOOOO
<ultos> rofl
<liar> then she finally got it right
<Downix> oh man.
<liar> and she had to ask if they had anchoives and where they were
<Downix> hehehe
<liar> get me yer fsckin manager
<liar> she shoulda been on parking lot cleanup instead of phone orders
<sr> liar: you could have set up a realaudio server and broadcasted the conversation over the internet
<Downix> hehe
<Downix> liar:  toilet patrol
<liar> and she just sounded dumb too
<Downix> fun
<liar> u know how even idiots have an iq of around 50+? shes probably the only human with a negative iq
<eihrul> that's kinda impossible though
<ultos> not necessarily
<liar> eihrul: she defies all odds
<eihrul> she knew how to use a phone...
<Downix> liar:  That's a bad IQ for a glass of water
<liar> i think someone was holding it up to her ear
<Downix> lol!
<water> maybe she was stressed out
<liar> ah crap
<liar> i gotta go back to work
<liar> wonder if i could make it to work and back before the pizza gets here
<Downix> ok
<water> not likely
<eihrul> is it a 30 minutes and it's free deal?
<liar> would pizza hut wait for me? :)
<liar> eihrul: no
<Downix> liar:  Probably not
<liar> 30-45 minutes
<liar> but they always show up in about 20-25
<ultos> dude
<ultos> if you go you
<ultos> you'll miss em
<ultos> if you don't they'll be there in an hour.
<liar> ultos: exactly
07:20pm
<Downix> wow, food comes up, computer talk dies
<ultos> well, i'm starving
<Downix> speaking of GUI's tho, brix's concept really sounds solid.
<Downix> I should download it and try it
<sr> Downix: what's that concept?
<Downix> sr:  ask liar, it's his gui.
<liar> sr: uhh u dont know?
<Downix> sr:  Well, OS
<Downix> ok, need to go pick up ex at work
-:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (BitchX: coming soon to a theatre near you!)
<liar> hmm
<liar> who the fuck would go pickup a girl they arent getting sex from?
<liar> anymore
<eihrul> hey...
<eihrul> he just said EX... he never said he wasn't getting sex
<liar> uhh
<sr> eihrul: so is your OS pretty far along?
<liar> bbiaf
<Tril> anyone here
<Tril> water?
<abi> i think water is at http://www.tunes.org/~water/water.html or an expression of the Tao or our island of intelligence
<eihrul> sr: not yet... i've just been absorbing knowledge so far
<eihrul> the API and some of the memory management code is well fleshed out though
07:30pm
<water> hey tril
<water> i'm on modtunes, mostly
<Tril> I got a mail from microsoft
<Tril> someone in the Intentional programming research found my link to their site and asked where I got it
<Tril> should I answer?  :-)
<Tril> in my bookmark file
<sr> water: you know alpha asm?
<water> sr: i'm not very familiar with it
<water> tril: lol
<water> tril: do you really think that they are paranoid?
<Tril> http://www.research.microsoft.com/research/ip/NewsMove.htm
<Tril> the IP group was moved from reseach to development.
<water> tril: or are they clueless as to why anyone would be interested in their research?
<water> oh
<Tril> they will be spreading IP results trying to get them used throughout microsoft and eventually for sale
<water> r e a l l y . . .
<Fare> Tril: hum
<ultos> w0w
<Tril> Fare what do you think, should i answer them?
<ultos> if it isn't francois rideau
<Tril> should we announce to Micorosoft that Tunes exists and is competitor now
<Fare> Tril: I sent a 45KB e-mail to cybernethics@tunes.org, that got rejected for being >40000 bytes...
<water> the guy who can't decide on what Lisp is his favorite flavor
<Fare> ultos: francois rideau is not me, he's my father.
<Fare> ultos: I'm Francois-Rene Rideau.
<sr> Fare: or Dang Vu Ban?
<Fare> that too
<Tril> Fare: That's not rejected, it should be forwarded to moderator for approval
<water> patented!?!
<water> erg.. ugh
<water> noooooooo!!!!!
<Fare> who's the moderator? I received nothing, but a BOUNCE
<Tril> water referring to : "A number of these results have been patented." ?
<water> tril: yes
<Tril> Fare: then you are the moderator
<Tril> it goes to owner-cybernethics, not to the sender!
<sr> Faré's Hit counter: You are the LAST person to have accessed this page up to now. 
<Fare> Tril: and what should I do about it?
<sr> clever
<Tril> pipe the message into "approve" on bespin if you want it posted
<Tril>  /usr/lib/majordomo/bin/approve
<Fare> ok
<Tril> you must setup ~/.majordomo (mode 600) with the passwrods for the list
<Tril> see ~dem/.majordomo
<Tril> (as root)
<Fare> can I bounce it to an address?
<water> hmm. i think that i can still distinguish my "abstract ontology" idea
<Tril> no, it looks at teh Reply-To: field and wont work if there ain't one
<Tril> but you can edit it first
<Tril> or read source for approve, maybe you can
07:40pm
<Fare> I suppose the second field is the password?
<Tril> water: did you find the exact patent numbers?
<water> not yet
<water> where would i look?
<Tril> listname password majordomo@tunes.org
<Tril> patents.ibm.com
<Tril> search for ip i guess
<Tril> not you abi!
<Fare> hum, where are majordomo files, already?
<Tril> Fare: dpkg -L majordomo
<Tril> i found 2145 matches for patents with search word "Microsoft"
<Tril> I suppose clicking on "Order" will want me to pay money, instead of sorting the pages!
<water> Method and apparatus for deducing user intent and providing computer implemented services
<eihrul> umm, how could someone get that patent?
<Fare> eih: by paying the patent office
<water> easy, they're a corporation with money and half-baked ideas
<Fare> how come someone who makes a scientific breakthrough gets no patent, but the ones who make petty improvements do?
<eihrul> then why haven't they bothered to defend said patent?
<ultos> Fare: Depends on whether its discovered or invented
<ultos> a lot of scientific breakthroughs are discovered,and you can't patent discoveries
<ultos> (BTW, why a^x^x = a can be patented (it is) defies me)
07:50pm
<eihrul> ultos: that's kind of contradictory to the purpose of patents themselves
<Tril>                            Method and system for transferring data between objects using registered data formats
<Tril> (not related to ip)
<Tril> ultos what is patented?
<Fare> so the one who really benefits mankind is not rewarded, but the one with a petty improvement is rewarded?
<ultos> Tril: a^x^x = a
<ultos> (xor encoding)
<ultos> Fare: Correct
<Tril> oh, ^ is XOR, not POW
<water> here it is:
<ultos> Yeah, sorry.
<water> US5911072: Method and system for reducing an intentional program tree represented by high-level computational constructs 
<water> the other one was a false lead, i think
<ultos> Fare: Like...why is jewelry so expensive?
<ultos> most jewelry really is cheap
<ultos> the cost that goes into it is very small
<ultos> diamonds ain't rare ;)
<ultos> but food otoh is usually very inexpensive
<water> ok, it seems M$'s intention (pun) to make a system where domain-specific languages (very limited ones) are transformed via term re-write rules into (basically) c++ code
<Tril> I bet they have patent on cut and paste
<Fare> I want to put a patent on putting silly patents
<Fare> a self-contradicting patent that would show the failure of the patent system.
<water> their idea _is just to have the programmer document the "idea" behind the program, so that they can re-use it. not the best idea i've ever heard.
<ultos> heh
<ultos> good idea =P
<eihrul> fare: prior art
<eihrul> but maybe if you explained the idea abstractly enough
<eihrul> you could make it cover silly patents without actually stating silly patents
<Fare> eihrul: yeah, that's the idea.
<water> it sounds like M$ wants to re-invent literate programming
<ultos> ack
<ultos> M$-LOBOC
<Fare> M$-LOBOTOMY2000
<ultos> you know
<ultos> thats a good product name
<ultos> M$-LOBO-C-2000
08:00pm
<ultos> Cobol backwards, or, lobotomized C, 2000 =)
<sr> heh
<eihrul> C's already been lobotomized
<water> so, the overall idea /is to educate M$ programmers on formal documentation. that's the entire idea.
<Fare> not lobotomized; rather, lobotomizing.
* water/#tunes sighs in relief.
<Tril> US5790863: Method and system for generating and displaying a computer
<Tril>                           program
<Fare> let's go back to coding.
<sr> ultos: do you like forth?
<water> Fare: lisp dialect?
<Fare> yup, for instance
<ultos> Yeah,I do.
<water> Fare: on, i mean have you selected one
<Tril> no, he's writing one
<water> with what features?
<Fare> I'll be making my own dialect
<ultos> heheh
<ultos> Fare; Make it not clobber stack =)
<water> right, so what sort of dialect will you make? what criteria for design?
<Fare> it will separate #f, '(), NIL, _ (universal matcher), rather like Scheme
<Fare> but it will have a lot of commonlisp features
<Fare> also a lot of ML features
-:- sr [depag@phila-dialup190.nni.com] has left #tunes []
<Fare> design criteria: 1) have a simple orthogonal core
<Fare> 2) support reflection in the core
<Fare> 3) have lots of basic types as libraries (covering as much of CL as possible)
<Fare> 4) do NOT have a One Global Class Hierarchy
<water> 4: good
<Fare> 5) have a notion of "domain" that embodies the metaaspects of objects within a code chunk
<Fare> (call that ontology if you like; my boss calls them domain, so so will I)
<Tril> I bet they contacted me because they are looking for people to hire (which they have a page about)
<Fare> Tril: who's contacted you?
<ultos> Your boss?
<water> fare: not an ontology at all, but continue
<Fare> ok, I've usenetted enough for the semester
<Fare> IRQ!
* Fare/#Tunes goes get 61453
<Tril> Fare: microsoft saw intentional programming in my bookmarks page and asked me where I got it.
<Tril> Fare: On their page it says IP is no loner research, but development, and they are hiring programmers for it.
08:10pm
<Fare> Tril: if it's free software, say yes.
<Fare> ;->
<Tril> right
<water> yeah sure
<water> we've had this discussion before
<Fare> have we?
<Tril> but they didnt propose anything. should i tell them abuot tunes?
<Fare> anyway, back to the LISP thing.
<water> yes
<water> i mean back to lisp
<Fare> So it will be a 1-lisp, like Scheme, but with first-class environments,
<water> what orthogonality are you concerned about, specifically?
<Fare> and the possibility to reflectively make it a n-lisp like CL.
<Fare> water: side-effects, for instance.
<water> as in no side effects?
<Fare> water: as with well-delimited side-effects
<Tril> side effects should be done by explicit reflection
<Fare> side-effects should be explicitly separated from binding
<water> got an example?
<Fare> ML does it well; so does POP. Scheme got it completely wrong. CL at least can annotate variables as read-only.
<Tril> Fare: implement the language using reflection, as a regular program in itself
<Fare> Tril: to begin with, as a regular program in CL.
<Fare> (I'm sick of reinventing bad wheels with Scheme, and wanna learn about CL, too)
<Fare> it will have lots of deffoo statements;
<Fare> or maybe a generic one with lots of options
<Fare> it will have pattern-matching a la ML.
* AlonzoTG/#tunes is refining his development plan for his OS.
<Fare> it will have a notion of linear typing.
<ultos> well
<ultos> deffoo is really just a macro right?
<ultos> why not just a really awesome macro system
<Fare> ultos: oh, not only will it have a macro system,
<ultos> Fare: Oh yeah, and when will it be done? =)
<Fare> but the relationship between the macrosystem, the compilation system, etc, will be specified
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<water> actually, i was wondering what the actual language (minus libraries) would consist of.
<Fare> it'll be a concurrent language, and parsing, macro-expansion, etc, will be specified as concurrent processes.
08:20pm
<Fare> Although syntactic macros may be considered as syntactic extensions rather than static text-transformation.
<Tril> Fare: How will it support multi-language? Shared representation? Translation?
<Fare> oh, scheme syntactic macros are broken, because the constant fragments of expanded text are dynamically bound
<ultos> Fare, what about porn?
<Fare> as for multi-language and shared representation, the situation will be left as open as possible, with the advantages and disadvantages:
<water> what will prevent your idea from going the way of Common Lisp?
<Tril> CL died due to commercialization, i thought
<Tril> why would fare do that?
<Fare> the "domain" of a code chunk basically specifies its language, and you may have arbitrary language transformers;
<water> yeah, but it still is bloated
<Fare> with a program being executable iff you can ultimately transform it into something runnable (depending on your access rights)
<Fare> as for the interface between languages, they are also left to the choice of translator
<water> which means you've no policy on it at all
<Fare> in the worst case, we have a CORBA-like message-passing mechanism (except that there need be no stub, only implicit translation)
<Fare> CL: died is excessive. Let's say withered.
<Fare> water: Tao OS (well, the latest one by this frequent name) is hopeless.
<water> so how would the system deal with divergent development paths?
<ultos> There are 2 bilion Tao OS's...
<Fare> water: indeed, I have no a priori policy, and shouldn't have one.
<water> Fare: no kidding. you think that i couldn't tell that?
<Fare> But we will provide specific policies for specific languages.
<water> why?
<Fare> water: I was answering about the language interface.
<water> i don't understand how your language choice provides good meta-properties for the system
<Fare> as for development paths, we must develop a tree-based CVS thingy
<water> ugh
<water> cvs /is disgusting. you may as well re-instate the "single object inheritance hierarhcy"
<water> because it's the same thing at the meta-level
<Fare> water: it's basically a language non-choice. We choose a minimal imperative higher-order language for the core system, and with reflection allow it to bootstrap the system
-:- ElGato` [no@209-68-229-45.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes
<ElGato`> HI FRIENDS
<ElGato`> :D
<water> elgato: shush
* ElGato`/#tunes HUG
<ElGato`> hi agua
<Fare> water: hum, we needn't stop at a CVS alike; but we must have versioning
<water> Fare: it doesn't sound too minimal to me
<water> but versioning /is inherently problematic
08:30pm
<water> it introduces complexity
<Fare> water: the versioning will be handled through reflection; not part of the core language
<ultos> Fare
<water> so?
<ElGato`> im gonna post on the tunes mailing list for the second time (the first time i just introduced myself) :D
<ultos> stop theorizing
<ultos> start coding =)
<Fare> it's inherently complex, as you said. We'll thus have to deal with complexity
<water> i'd rather address it before making it, thank you
<Fare> water: what do you propose?
<water> c-coders have enough problems with their code's complexity. i don't want to inherit that kind of process
<Fare> remember, it must scale to a persistent distributed system!
<ultos> yeah
<water> yes, i am keeping that in mind
<ultos> but your gonna have to have several Ph.D's to program in it
<Fare> we encourage people to stay pure, but even then, intentionality creeps everywhere
<ultos> and one of them is going to have to be in psychobabble =)
<water> but verion-based distribution of code results in random bugs
<ElGato`> fare: you should be happy to know im factoring my code more now =)
<liar> sure u are
<water> the Squeak project that i work with has lots of problems related to that
<water> of course, they don't use much reflection in their code-sharing
<Fare> EG: in what language?
<Fare> water: random bugs only if there is no way to correlate versions!
<Fare> water: example problem?
<water> but correlating versions based on Cons cells requires a single path from one system state to the next
<Fare> why Cons cells?
<Fare> why single path?
<Fare> what are you talking about?
<ElGato`> oh
<ElGato`> in C =(
<Fare> EG: pffff
<water> well, you stated that you would use reflection to represent versioning via a lisp, right?
<Fare> sure, so what?
<water> that to me means that a cons cell would represent the application of a change to the system
<Fare> uh????
<Fare> what gives in english?
<water> you apply a function on the system to yield the new version
<Fare> yes, but what the heck is the cons cell doing here?
<Fare> you may modelize in a pure way the transformations of the system, a system in a pure way
<Fare> s/,.*//
<Fare> but what's it to do with lisp?
<water> because every syntactic construct in a lisp is a cons cell, including function-application
* Fare/#Tunes hits water with an EVAL function
<Fare> water: what matters is not the source representation as a cons cell
<water> i'm saying that lisp semantics make multiple paths to the same state absurd
<Fare> water: what matters is the semantic structure!
<Fare> water: uh??????
<Fare> water: what the heck are you talking about?
08:40pm
<Fare> what do you call a path????
<water> if you have two people implement the same feature in different ways, their designs will be incompatible, you idiot
<Fare> and what does lisp or not lisp change about it????
<Fare> what does lisp or not lisp change about it????
<Fare> what does lisp or not lisp change about it????
<Fare> what does lisp or not lisp change about it????
<water> nothing for you, because you don't address that in your lisp
<Fare> you idiot yourself, if you wanna play that game
<water> because you insist on "versioning"
<Fare> water: in a distributed system, versioning is a fact of life.
<water> i'm saying that you should look at other ways to model changes to the system
<water> bullshit
<Fare> water: ok, in a distributed system _with failures and disconnections_
<water> versioning /is modern convention
<Fare> bullshit. ITS had versioning in the 60's.
<Fare> and it didn't invent it.
<water> i'm not saying a company invented it, it's a european cultural thing
<Fare> besides, the important point is not the convention with which you number the versions, it's the fact that a same "intention" may have several "extensions" at the same time.
<Fare> european???
<water> western, whatever
<Fare> what have you smoked?
<water> okay, indo-european. are you satisfied?
<Fare> no
<water> then you're a cultural bigot
<Fare> it's not about either ethnology or geography.
<Fare> it's about science and engineering, that know no border
<Fare> and know no race
<water> yes it is. you just don't see beyong the borders of your own little world
<ultos> Hooked on Ebonics worked for me, yo!
<Fare> insults won't lead you anywhere.
<water> you don't accept the fact that sci/eng bulldozes other cultures indifferently
<Fare> mind you, my mom is vietnamese;
<water> so?
<ultos> Yeah. Fare is an ugly bugger! =)
<Fare> you have nothing to teach me about cultural clashes
<water> i don't care what genetic heritage you have, because you've bought into the western academic culture
<hcf> GET BACK TO LISP
<Fare> who's being a closed minded bigot?
<water> right
<ultos> bigot! bigot!
<ultos> ok now,this is lame.
<ultos> I thought this was a channel for intelligent conversation ;)
<water> meat-aspects of code
<water> s/meat/meta
<Fare> with tomato juice
* ElGato`/#tunes had some ideas about structured macro programming
<Fare> ok, so you have domains.
<water> deterministic aspects can be handled via graph-re-write rules
<ElGato`> or preprocessing in general
<Fare> and meta-domains, etc.
<water> well, domains aren't aspects
<water> which is it?
<Fare> in a given meta-domain, a domain may represent the host on which you run
<Fare> or the language that you use
<Fare> or the GC that you rely upon
<Fare> et
<Fare> c
<water> which could lead to non-orthogonal domains
<Fare> no, an aspect is a projection of an object according to a domain.
<Fare> yes, non-orthogonal domains, sure.
08:50pm
<Fare> so you have to weave aspects together, or whatelse.
<water> => more complexity (just letting you know)
<Fare> is that so? I coud neeeeever guess so!
<water> yes, and you can specify weaving via graph rewrite
<Fare> you can specify it in whatever way you like
<water> sorry, but we're being logged, and i want to have that in the logs
<Fare> graph rewrite is such a way
<water> i'm just saying that the semantics are the same
<water> that's all
<Fare> water: when defining a generic framework, we mustn't overconstrain the user
<ElGato`> D:
<Fare> the process of defining a standard library will naturally bring more constraints than necessary, already
<water> sure, but graph re-write is _known_ to deterministically handle aspects well
<Fare> bzzt, wrong
<water> why?
<Fare> no anymore so than other techniques.
<water> ok, of course there are other techniques. got any urls for papers about them?
<Fare> Review/Reflection.html
<water> besides, it's the simplest paradigm for it that i know of
<Fare> (and other URLs I have accumulated)
<Fare> water: foo!
<water> oh geez. i should have seen that crap coming a mile away
<Fare> allowing arbitrary metaprograms in your usual language is even simpler
<water> Fare: you didn't grok aop, did you?
<Fare> (see LISP macros, OpenC++ or OpenJava metaprograms, etc)
<Fare> water: I think I did
<Fare> graph rewrite sure has nice things about it, like a natural modularity.
<water> i think that you missed some properties of the idea
<Fare> water: insults still won't lead you anywhere
<water> i'm not insulting, i'm trying to point out
<water> aspects are difficult to separate
<Fare> graph rewrite makes simple things simple; but it doesn't remove anything to the inherent problems of non-orthogonality of aspects.
<water> by current efforts, that is
<Fare> aspects are INHERENTLY difficult to separate, there will NEVER oh NEVER be a miracle solution to that, rewrite logic or not rewrite logic
<Fare> (and I do like rewrite logic)
<water> thanks for clarifying your narrow-mindedness
-:- mode/#Tunes [+o Fare] by ChanServ
-:- water was kicked off #tunes by Fare (foo!)
-:- water [water@ppp-tnt-35.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<Fare> that's for my narrow-mindedness
<water> tell me about it
-:- mode/#Tunes [-o Fare] by Fare
<water> you argue with dtm just the same way
<Fare> you don't argue.
<water> you argue with everyone else who tries to point out that things just might be different from the way you see them
<water> you don't listen
09:00pm
<Fare> of course things might be different! but just saying "things might be different" over and over and not giving a single clue leads you nowhere.
<water> i have given you clues: rtfp
<Fare> which fp?
<water> the fap
<Fare> a?
<water> take a wild guess
<Tril> hehe
<Fare> I take it, and your paper didn't enlighten me much
<Fare> not more than your usual "there might be something different".
<water> that's because you didn't want to learn from it or the research it's based on
<Fare> indeed there might, but I have no evidence.
<Tril> come on stop your petty bickering both of you
<Fare> You might be a venusian trying to invade earth, as go things that might be!
<water> this isn't petty: he wants to make something that satisfies the Tunes requirements with a terrible hack
<Fare> a bootstrap hack
<water> which will make my efforts all the more difficult
<Fare> I know no bootstrap that ain't a hack.
<liar> heh, we have a talk show host running for prez
<Tril> oh, you mean a dirty hack?
<Tril> a kludge?
<water> you will be removing complexity from Tunes centuries from now, if it even lasts that long
<Fare> KLUGE
<Fare> that's the name of the kernel lisp
<Fare> water: currently, the code is much too simple (complexity=0), which worries me more
<water> prediction: tunes will never escape code bloat when code-writing begins
<water> never
<Fare> I don't care about your prediction
<Fare> you sound like Fox Mulder
<Tril> abi: accial
<abi> i think accial is "A Crash Course in Arrow Logic" at ftp://ftp.phil.uu.nl/pub/logic/PREPRINTS/preprint107.ps.Z
<water> you sound like Willie Lomax
<Fare> yes, accial is interesting, altohugh I can grok but the simplest parts
<Tril> you both sound like Beavis and Butthead
<Fare> I know not Willie Lomax
<water> Death of a Salesman
<Fare> oh
<water> s/Lomax/Loman
<Fare> well, if you don't spell it right!
<water> sorry :P
<Fare> I liked that Henry Miller's play.
<Fare> (the only one I read, actually)
<Fare> so, in the core core core lisp, we have call-by-value lambda-calculus, a (new ...) primitive, and set!
<water> well, why don't you continue with describing your "Tao Lisp" to everyone else while i go take care of some thinks
09:10pm
* water/#tunes -> away
<Tril> i'm listening, and i'm sure i dont agree, but go ahead fare
<Fare> the new primitive makes it explicit in what domain an object is allocated
<Fare> then we need reflection primitives
<Fare> first, things like (in-domain ...);
<Fare> also, a call/cc, but one that is very much unlike Scheme's.
<Fare> or maybe many call/cc's
<Fare> first, a linear one, that must respect linear types, and cannot lead to duplicated continuations
<Fare> then, the possibility to explicitly duplicate continuations, copying linear objects.
<Fare> and it there's a call/cc, there must be a set/cc!
<Fare> (or whatever the name)
<Fare> it's also important to avoid memory leaks
<Fare> the fact that "auto" variables be copied when duplicating threads is important, and allows them to be stored into activation frames
<Fare> (whereas Scheme forces them to be allocated on heap)
<Fare> ack?
<Tril> i dont know what call/cc is
<Fare> consider it as the possibility to capture the future of the computation, as embodied by the call stack
<Tril> what does it stand for?
<Fare> only Scheme allows a continuation to be reentered many times, which poses problems with sharing variables
<Fare> abi: no, call/cc is call-with-current-continuation, as defined in R5RS; see continuation
<abi> okay, Fare.
09:20pm
<Tril> is the term "closure" used in lisp like it is in A Lisp through the Looking Glass
<Fare> abi: no, a continuation is the reification of the computation, as embodied by the current content of the call stack.
<abi> okay, Fare.
<Fare> abi: no, a continuation is the reification of the computation, as embodied by the current contents of the call stack.
<abi> okay, Fare.
<Fare> Tril: I haven't read enough of ALttLG
<Tril> Fare: Does continuation include the interpreter that is doing the computation?
<Fare> no
<Tril> What does "closure" mean in lisp
<Fare> it's already interned
<Fare> a closure is a functional term with bound variables.
<hcf> Fare: http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?call%2fcc
<Fare> such as (let ((y 1)) (lambda (x) (+ x y)))
<Tril> i forget what interned means
<Fare> its semantics are implicit, and the object is directly available to the user
<Fare> it's first-class and self-sufficient, if you prefer
<Tril> I finished ALttLG today
<Fare> I've printed it yesterday
<Tril> maybe read the summaries first
<Tril> and the summary of the summary very first
<Fare> bed time
<Tril> ok
<Fare> iirc, aLttLG uses the tower model...
<Fare> I want no tower, I want a category
<Fare> towers assume a canonical truth
<Fare> it's both inflexible and completely unadapted to distributed computing
<Fare> and autistic, too
<Tril> tower does not assume canonical truth. the meaning of each tower level is assigned by the one above it.
09:30pm
<Fare> make that a canonical hierachy of truths, if you prefer
<Tril> do you have material about non-tower moedls of reflection?
-:- Fare is now known as Fare3053
<Tril> oh, well
<Fare3053> Tril: my own draft article in french :)
<Fare3053> or mpfas
<Tril> I have not seen ANY good explanation of reflection, except this alttlg
<Fare3053> not even mpfas? :( :( :(
<Fare3053> ~fare/articles/ll99/
<Tril> Fare3053: But alttlg has a description of a complete system with reflection!
<Tril> I think you should read the paper, and try to get the source code from him
<Fare3053> I will.
<Tril> the important parts are in the thesis. But the whole distribution would be good, so yo ucould run it.
<Fare3053> now, GOTO 3053
<Tril> ya ya
<Tril> bye
-:- SignOff Fare3053: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear)
<hcf> whats 3053?
<abi> 3053 is inevitable.
<hcf> bed?
<water> heh
* water/#tunes was never gone.
<hcf> "<water> well, why don't you continue with describing your "Tao Lisp" to everyone else [...]" there already is a tao lisp, see http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?TAO
<water> of course
<water> someday, the english language will be unspeakable, because every word will be a title
<hcf> i was thinking fare should call it FLUNK "Fare's L(something) Ultimate Lisp Kernel"
09:40pm
<hcf> Tril: here?
09:50pm
<ElGato`> does scanf terminate a string with a null?
<water> is it a c function that returns a string?
<ElGato`> no
<water> then it doesn't
<ElGato`> like scanf("%s", buffer);
<ElGato`> even if buffer is 128 long will it terminate it early?
<water> dunno
-:- fulltilt [user5620@csd11-050.sd.cybernex.net] has joined #Tunes
<ElGato`> k
<water> hmm.. full-tilt
<fulltilt> hey
<abi> hola, fulltilt
<water> ignore the info-bot
<water> what brings you here?
<fulltilt> ok, so I'm new to MP3, but love it....
<water> ah. well, we're not an mp3 channel per se
<fulltilt> ok, not a prob
<water> but we could help a little, i guess
<water> #linpeople would probably be better in general
<fulltilt> it just feels 'next'  Solid state and CD quality "not there yet but it could be"
<fulltilt> Any idea of when I'll be bale to get a mp3 player for my car???  :)
<water> hehe
<water> maybe next year or perhaps by xmas
<fulltilt> I think that's the band wagon I want to be on....
<fulltilt> gotta run all, have a good one....
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-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
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<water> ?
10:00pm
<water> gnite
<ElGato`> er when i call exit and i just want to exit the program normally what arg should i use?
<ElGato`> 3?
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<eihrul> EXIT_SUCCESS and EXIT_FAILURE
<eihrul> are defined in <stdlib.h>
* ultos/#tunes nods
<ultos> defined as wat?
<ultos> 0 and 1?
<abi> 1
<ultos> abi, 4 is 5
<abi> ...but 4 is already 2 cycles of tie-in!...
<eihrul> 0 should be success
<eihrul> 1 should be failure
<ultos> abi, no, 4 is 5
<abi> okay, ultos.
<ultos> 4?
<abi> it has been said that 4 is 5
<ultos> cackle
<eihrul> abi: no, 4 is not 4
<abi> okay, eihrul.
<eihrul> 4?
<abi> i think 4 is not 4
<ultos> 4 is 5
<ultos> abi, 4?
<abi> 4 is, like, not 4
<ultos> abi, no, 4 is 2+3-5/5
<abi> okay, ultos.
<ultos> abi, 4?
<abi> well, 4 is 2+3-5/5
<eihrul> abi: 4 is 4
<abi> ...but 4 is 2+3-5/5...
<ultos> Hail Eris!
<eihrul> abi: no, 4 was 4
<eihrul> abi: no, 4 is was 4
<abi> okay, eihrul.
<eihrul> 4?
<ultos> grr
<abi> i guess 4 is was 4
<ultos> abi, no, 4 is 2+3-5/5
<abi> okay, ultos.
<eihrul> abi: no, 4 is 2-3*5/5+1
<abi> okay, eihrul.
<ultos> uh, no
<ultos> abi, no, 4 is 2+3-5/5
<abi> okay, ultos.
<eihrul>  abi: no, 4 is 2-3*5/5+1
<abi> okay, eihrul.
<ultos> abi, no, 4 is 2+3-5/5
<abi> okay, ultos.
<eihrul>  abi: no, 4 is 2-3*5/5+1
<abi> okay, eihrul.
<ultos> abi, no, 4 is 2+3-5/5
<abi> okay, ultos.
10:20pm
<eihrul> abi: no, 4 is 4
<abi> okay, eihrul.
<ultos> abi, no, 4 is 2+3-5/5
<abi> okay, ultos.
<eihrul> abi: no, 4 is anything but 4
<abi> okay, eihrul.
<ultos> abi, no, 4 is 2+3-5/5
<abi> okay, ultos.
<hcf> ultos: ok, enuf
<eihrul> abi: no, ultos is 4
<ultos> abi, no, hcf is boring
<abi> okay, ultos.
<ultos> =)
<hcf> ppl, do via /msg
<hcf> s/do/do it/
<eihrul> how about we just stop? :)
* ultos/#tunes grumbles
<ultos> odd
10:30pm
<ultos> nite all
<ultos> abi, no, ultos is god
<abi> okay, ultos.
-:- SignOff ultos: #TUNES (Leaving)
10:40pm
-:- lar1 [LARMAN@dialup-209.245.130.145.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes
<lar1> Hey
<abi> hello, lar1
10:50pm
<lar1> Anyone awake?
<hcf> i is
11:20pm
<Tril> hi
<abi> hey, Tril
<hcf> Tril: http://www.wdbi.net
<lar1> Tril: I have a bug report on the FAQ.  Do you want it or should I give it to Fare?
<Tril> why dont you tell me here
-:- skitz [skitz@d204-ps0-mel.alphalink.com.au] has joined #tunes
<hcf> another bug is that it doesnt tell to whom to send bug reports
<lar1> Ok, the FAQ doesn't explain _what_ reflection is.  It just says that tunes uses it and its cool.
<Tril> ok, i'll work on that in the next few days
<Tril> lar1: did you get that information from elsewhere?
<lar1> Error parsing token: Ambigous refrence 'reflection'.  Errno: 2321.  Connection to English Interperter lost.
<lar1> Tril: no
<Tril> abi: what is reflection?
<abi> reflection is a property of a system that can refer to itself and manipulate its state or rough on my brain
<lar1> Self modifying code?
<Tril> sort of
<lar1> Why is that good?
<ElGato`> gnight
-:- SignOff ElGato`: #TUNES (:P)
11:30pm
<Tril> it's not self modifying, at least not directly
<lar1> Then what is it?
<Tril> reflection is where the program in a language, can get access to the internal working of the language.
<lar1> Why whould you want that?
<lar1> Thats kind of like inline ASM in C
<Tril> its not like inline asm. for C to have reflection, you would need to be able to add new keywords and operators (not just functions) to the language.
<lar1> What would the puropse of that be?
<Tril> and get the definitions of existing keywords, operators and functions.  Currently, you can't even access the definitions of functions that YOU DEFINE, in C.  So C is a non-reflective language.
<Tril> The purpose is so you can do metaprogramming of a language, using that same language. 
<Tril> So you don't have to use a separate language.
<lar1> What is metaprogramming
<Tril> That's a simple one.
<lar1> The FAQ fails to explain metaprogramming as well
<Tril> a metaprogram, is any program that inputs or outputs another program
<lar1> So programs are writing other programs?
<Tril> A lot of things are in the Glossary. Reflection and metaprogramming should be in there.
<Tril> The FAQ does not repeat glossary entries
<lar1> Hmm, ok
-:- ruiner [nate@ppp127.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes
<Tril> yes, in a program, you can write a program, or read one, or make a change to one
<lar1> The FAQ should have the first use of reflection metaprogramming, etc linked to the glossary entry
<Tril> ok
<lar1> Why would you want to do that?
<ruiner> anybody have much knowledge about audio?
11:40pm
<Tril> well, currently people have to write programs mostly by hand.  Tools that can write parts of programs for you, or help, will make programming easier.
<Tril> ruiner: You will have to be more specific!! :)
<ruiner> I've got a reciever hooked into my sound card, but apparently its only getting the output for the left speaker
<Tril> ruiner: Is it a stereo sound card?
<ruiner> i.e. both right and left speakers are playing the left part
<Tril> ruiner: Is it stereo speakers?
<lar1> Tril:  Isn't that what RAD does?
<ruiner> sound blaster awe 32
<Tril> lar1: sure
<Tril> we're intersted in RAD
<Tril> ruiner do you have a stereo CORD between the sound card and speakers
<lar1> Tril:  So all that buzzwordy stuff boils down to:  TUNES is gonna have a RAD compiler?
<Tril> no
<Tril> what I mean is, RAD is one example of metaprogramming, but there are many others
<Tril> it's not everything
<ruiner> hmmmm.....good question.....my friend picked up the cord....lemme check
<lar1> Tril:  So what else would use metaprogramming?
<ruiner> all I can really tell you is that its a y cable
-:- skitz [skitz@d204-ps0-mel.alphalink.com.au] has left #tunes []
<Tril> lar1: Read Fare's paper, Metaprogramming and the Free Availability of Sources, he talks about a lot of good reasons.
<lar1> ruiner:  Does it have 1 or 2 black rings on the connector?
<lar1> Tril:  Where is it?
<ruiner> pardon?
<Tril> abi: ll99?
<abi> tril: bugger all, i dunno
<Tril> abi: mpfas is http://www.tunes.org/~fare/articles/ll99/index.en.html
<lar1> Ruiner:  On the metal connector, the plug, are there 1 or 2 rings of black?
<Tril> abi: mpfas is also Metaprogramming and the Free Availability of Sources by Fare
<abi> okay, Tril.
<ruiner> you mean where it plugs into the sound card?
<lar1> Yes, the think you are putting into the sound card
<ruiner> one
<ruiner> dammit...
<lar1> Thats mono
<ruiner> stupid dave
<ruiner> pissed
<ruiner> thanx for the help lar
<lar1> No problem
<ruiner> you too tril
<Tril> :)
11:50pm
<hcf> Tril: ppl shouldnt have to read a paper to get a list of reasons for meta-programming
<ruiner> Nate is gonna get up in the morning and drive out to target or best buy and get a fooking stereo y cable
<Tril> just read the first few paragraphs! "...manipulation of code must be automated as much as possible, by having machines handle reliably all the inferior tasks that do not pose theoretical problems anymore. And to automate programming by definition is *metaprogramming*."
<lar1> That tells me 0
<Tril> lar1: What is the purpose of computers?
<lar1> other then what metaprogramming is
<ruiner> number crunching
<Tril> didnt ask you:)
<lar1> Tril:  The puropse of the computer was orinally to calculate stuff.  Like missle trajectorys
<Tril> plus if you are here then obviosuly computers are for IRC.
<eihrul> tril: to lower productivity 
<ruiner> thought it was an open ?.....sorry
<ruiner> no no no....totally wrong eihrul
<ruiner> its to raise expectations
<Tril> ruiner, no, you may talk, but that is kind of a limited view, isnt it?
<ruiner> true enough
<eihrul> ruiner: both!
<ruiner> brand me a luddite and spank my ass
<ruiner> I see this as one of the greatest mistakes we can make:
<Tril> well you guys must not do any programming. Programming is a mind numbingly boring task that involves lots of wasted time by translating things to one particular way of thinking. (Based on the language you are using)
<ruiner> assuming that by requiring idiots who know nothing of the true capabilities of a machine use it will raise productivity
<Tril> Now the purpose of metaprogramming is to allow the BORING parts (like typing the same thing over and over, for instance) to be done by the computer. 
<ruiner> to use it I meant
<lar1> Programming _is not mind numbingly boring taks_ I _HATE_ RAD
<lar1> to an extent
<Tril> The purpose of reflection is to allow you to modify the language so that you dont have to translate what you are thinking into a limited framework of a language, but instead you just extend the language to easily express what you want.
<ruiner> I hate it when people seem to think that a windows box will solve all their problems and make the world their own personal coca cola commercial
<lar1> I don't want programming to fall to the point that my 9 year old brother can crank out a cool OS
<ruiner> sounds like it would get pretty big
<ruiner> and that standards would be non existant
<ruiner> good call lar
<ruiner> me neither
<Tril> lar1: elitist!!!!
<ruiner> shouldn't be able to code an os unless you know your crap
<lar1> What does elitist mean?
<ruiner> elitist? bah!
<ruiner> heh heh heh
<ruiner> nevermind....since its not true
<eihrul> apparently people don't want middle aged programmers able to crank out infrequent used english :)
<Tril> Programmers who want to have control, and make sure users don't get control.
<eihrul> s/infrequent/infrequently
<lar1> I don't wanna get out my dictonary... whats an elitist?
<Tril> People who want to keep an elite class of people who understand technology, while keeping everyone else ignorant, and thus controlling them.
<ruiner> there's nothing elitist about people having to know the internal workings of a pc before they code an operating system
<lar1> And how is it pronounced?
<Tril> lar1: elite simply means higher, or better, exclusive group
<eihrul> eleetist
<Tril> lar1 what is your native language
<lar1> Ohhh
<ruiner> eleet ist
<lar1> Tril:  English, but I am 14 :)
<ruiner> heh heh heh....lar has a bright future
<Tril> also the correct spelling is 31337.
<lar1> I was reading it like ell-it-ust
<Tril> you will see that some places.
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0829
IRC log ended Sun Aug 29 00:00:01 1999