IRC log started Mon Jan  3 00:00:01 2000
<lar1> Is that not the timer with the lowest value?
<air> i think i need to compare N-C and X-C
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0103
<air> ya i think thats right
<air> no, it wouldnt be the timer with the lowest value
<air> if C=2^32-5, N=2^32-2 and N=1 then N would have the lowest value but X is still next
<lar1> N=2^32 and 1?
<air> the counter will tick 5 times and then roll over
<air> X is 3 ticks away and N is 6
<air> i think comparing N-C to X-C will work
<lar1> Ok
<air> N-C=3 and X-C=6
<air> unsigned 32bit number
<air> no i need the absolute value
* eihrul/#tunes yawns.
<lar1> :)
<air> eihrul: am i right?
<air> eihrul: feel free to step in at any time
<eihrul> i just got back
<eihrul> what's the problem?
<abi> well, the problem is , as usualy, explaining what tunes is
<air> :)
<eihrul> abi: air's problem
<eihrul> abi: the problem is, as usal, explaining what tunes is
<abi> i haven't a clue, eihrul
<eihrul> abi: the problem is, as usual, explaining what tunes is
<abi> eihrul: bugger all, i dunno
<eihrul> abi: problem is, as usual, explaining what tunes is
<abi> eihrul: bugger all, i dunno
12:10am
<eihrul> hmmm
<eihrul> abi doesn't like sentences with what
<abi> i don't know, eihrul
<hcf> when
<hcf> using 'what'
<hcf> in a factoid's defn
<hcf> u need to use a \
<hcf> thus, blah \what blah
<eihrul> abi: the problem is, as usual, explaining \what tunes is
<eihrul> what is the problem?
<abi> the problem is , as usualy, explaining what tunes is
* eihrul/#tunes ponders.
<eihrul> air: i have to go pretend to do homework soon, so hurry up
<lar1> eihrul:  Homework?
<air> u want me to repeat it?
<hcf> abi: no, problem is <reply> the problem is, as usualy, explaining \what tunes is
<abi> okay, hcf.
<hcf> air: the problem?
<abi> the problem is, as usualy, explaining what tunes is
<eihrul> air: sure, because you did a horrible job of explaining it the first time
<air> heh
<air> ok i have a 32bit counter that inc's every 10ms
<lar1> eihrul:  Yes :)
<air> when i add a timer i store C+time where time is number of 10ms intervals before timer expires
<air> C=counter
<air> a pointer to the next timer to expire is stored as X
<air> and when i create a new timer, N, i must compare it to X to see if it will replace X as the next timer
<air> do i just do "cmp |X-C|,|N-C|"?
<eihrul> how long the timers wait before they go off is irrelevent
<air> eh?
<eihrul> the timer with the nearest event deadline is closer in the list
<eihrul> or rather closer to the head of the list
<eihrul> what is so hard about that?
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<air> is that the right comparison?
<air> the counter can roll over from 2^32-1 to 0
<air> so if C=2^32-5, X=2^32-2 and N=1 then X is still the next timer
<eihrul> eh
<eihrul> you should never have a problem where 2^32 overflows....
<air> there will never be a problem with it overflowing, but it will overflow and that is expected
12:20am
<eihrul> not easily
<eihrul> the counter should get kicked back to zero 
<eihrul> before any roll over can happen
<eihrul> (unless you can say that things are waiting for an event at all times)
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<air> if the comp has been up for a day and u set a timer to expire in 497 days then that timer value will be less than the current counter value
<eihrul> nope
<eihrul> that counter can be reset to zero
<eihrul> as soon as your timer queue is empty
<air> no
<air> that counter is the system uptime counter
<eihrul> i wouldn't use that for scheduling timers
<air> yes
<eihrul> i'd just use a delta from the time when the first timer is inserted into the queue
<air> i am
<air> based on the counter
<air> just like in dos when u save the current bios time of day counter, add some value to it and compare and loop until they are equal
<lar1> Emm equals delta Ekcs over delta why
<eihrul> well, its impossible to have a deadline less than the counter
<air> yes it is
<eihrul> its also impossible for you to overflow and then go above the counter
<eihrul> from the value of the counter
<air> if the comp has been running for 490 days and u set a timer to expire in 2 weeks than...
<eihrul> so....
<eihrul> any value less than the counter
<eihrul> should be moved into the place in the list
<air> any value above the counter will expire before any value below it
<eihrul> where X[0] > X [1]
<eihrul> or put at the end of the list
<eihrul> if no such place exists, thus creating that place
<eihrul> very simple :)
<eihrul> could otherwise even have two alternating queues...
<air> what the hell is X[0] and X[1]
<eihrul> X [0] is a given timer deadline in the list of timers
<eihrul> X [1] the next timer following it....
<eihrul> normally, barring overflowing
<eihrul> X [0] < X [1]
<eihrul> so that sorting the list and doing quick checks for expiration actually works....
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12:30am
<eihrul> now... its impossible that N < C, unless there's overflow
<eihrul> if there is
<eihrul> you either put it at the end of the list
<eihrul> or find where X [0] > X [1] (overflow)
<eihrul> two alternating queues would probably be faster
<air> the timers are are stored in a sorted list, my problem is comparing the new timer to the timers in the list to find its place
<eihrul> okay....
<eihrul> explaining again, you have two alternating queues :)
<eihrul> we'll call them Current and Next
<eihrul> if adding the timer's length to C does not overflow
<eihrul> you sort it into Current
<eihrul> if it does overflow
<eihrul> you sort it into Next
<air> ok i understand
<eihrul> now... tricky part
<eihrul> when C itself overflows....
<eihrul> you make swap the roles of the queues
<eihrul> -make
<eihrul> but you only need to check the first timer in Current
<air> oh crap, that will slow down my scheduler
<eihrul> bno it won't
<eihrul> because you always know
<eihrul> that timers in Next
<eihrul> expire after the last timer in Current
<air> a single list would be better
<eihrul> no it wouldn't!
<air> yes it would
<eihrul> trust me....
<eihrul> it wouldn't
<eihrul> the reason i'm suggesting two queues
<eihrul> is because scanning through the list
<eihrul> for the first such overflow
<eihrul> and then doing another insertion sort
<eihrul> is WAAAAAAAY slower
<air> i dont wanna add overflow checking of the counter into my scheduler
<eihrul> dude....
<eihrul> all you have to do is a jump-if-carry in insertion
<eihrul> and a jump-if-carry on increment of the counter
<eihrul> it WON'T kill you
<eihrul> 2-3 cycles! bah!
<air> it will
<eihrul> what you gain there
<eihrul> will be lost in insertion time
<eihrul> many fold
<air> and then every 497 days i will have a couple more cycles as it switches queues
* eihrul/#tunes laughs.
<eihrul> if ever you give me cause to dare call you naive, you do now
<air> even if i have 2 lists i still have to insert a new timer
<eihrul> yes...
<eihrul> but you have to do a linear search over one list
<eihrul> to find the start of the next
<eihrul> and if you just put a single pointer to the start of the first overflow
<eihrul> you have my scheme, basically
<eihrul> and actually...
<eihrul> that would work without having to swap queues
<air> hmm oh well im going to bed. thanks for yer help
<eihrul> you'd only have to swap on removal of a task
<eihrul> er timer
<eihrul> actually, nope
<eihrul> same thing
<air> cya
<eihrul> boils down to swapping on overflow (C)
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<eihrul> gah!
12:40am
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<Josh> Hello
<Josh> Any one home?
<Josh> Guess not...
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02:00am
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<tmf> hi
<tmf> happy new year!
07:10am
<Fufie> happy new year :)
07:20am
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* AlonzoTG/#tunes plants charges around the room and sets the detonators...
<smkl> hmm we need Kaufmann or Downix to nominate TUNES for slashdot award
<Fufie> which award is that?
<smkl> "most improved" ... it has most money
10:10am
<Fufie> url?
<smkl> just press "awards" from the main page
<Fufie> yes and you get the awards /. has won
<smkl> the lower awards
<smkl> and there is a story too
<smkl> Slashdot is Giving
<smkl>             Away $100,000
<Fufie> found it
<smkl> it will probably be given for "GNOKDE for win32"
<Fufie> whatever
10:20am
-is(ejb@master.debian.org)- Please remember that it is not polite to /msg people who you don't know at random, thanks.
-GlobalMessage(s@GlobalMessage)- Sorry all, that was a globalnotice. nothing personal :>
<AlonzoTG> fuck
<AlonzoTG> I told the dnetc to work on RC5 because CSC crashes my machine 
<AlonzoTG> but then when it goes to load packets it selects CSC 
<AlonzoTG> FUCK them!!
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* zarq/#tunes is back from being away: trug
10:50am
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* AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at smkl
* smkl/#tunes dies, then raises from the grave as zombie and rapes ATG. ATG goes to jail because he is a necrophil.
* AlonzoTG/#tunes smashes smkl with an Iron Butterfly
-:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (main(){fork();main();})
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
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<hcf> ho hum
<hcf> AlonzoTG: u here?
01:20pm
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<AlonzoTG> om
01:40pm
<hcf> AlonzoTG:
<hcf> abi: lal?
<abi> lal is probably _linkers and loaders_ at http://linker.iecc.com
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<AlonzoTG> om
01:50pm
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* AlonzoTG/#tunes smashes zarq__ with an Iron Butterfly
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<zarq_> ever seen hellraiser?
<AlonzoTG> yea, I finkso.
<zarq_> lousy movie, but they had some nice gadgets :)
<AlonzoTG> my 'doze shell reports some of my gnu files were written in the yarn 100
<AlonzoTG> =\
02:50pm
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<imarkov> hi, do you know channels discussing logic programming and prolog?
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<AlonzoTG> Thats it, for bringing up that topick, you deserve to die!!!!
<imarkov> why do you think so?
<AlonzoTG> I just recieved a book today, well I thought it was a book when I ordered it, but it turned out to be a fucking collection of papers. 
<AlonzoTG> $40 down the drain. =(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
<zarq> =)
<imarkov> how is that book entitled?
<smkl> nope, but there is one channel about functional programming
<AlonzoTG> Algebraic and logic programming...
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> There was no clue on the website that it wasn't a book.
<imarkov> whats the name of this channel, smkl?
<AlonzoTG> well this is #tunes
<AlonzoTG> =P
<smkl> #lambda at ircnet
<smkl> and then of course there is #tunes
<imarkov> hm i thought #tunes is a channel concerned with specific project or at least thats what i saw at www.tunes.org a few minutes ago
<smkl> ack i'm lagged
<imarkov> whats this 'ircnet' 
<smkl> the project has very large interests
03:00pm
<smkl> irc.stealth.net is one server .. ircnet is one of the four large irc networks
<smkl> efnet, ircnet, dalnet, undernet
<AlonzoTG> om
* zarq/#tunes is away: z
<imarkov> thanks, i entered ther
<Fare> imarkov: welcome
<imarkov> hm it seems the people interested in these areas are not quite many :)
* Fare/#Tunes is the original irresponsible for tunes.org
<Fare> imarkov: how did you learn about tunes.org?
03:10pm
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<Fare> damn peer!
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<smkl> wb imarkov
<imarkov> hi again,smkl
<Fare> imarkov: if you like rewrite logic, there's Maude, or vigneron's page at http://www.loria.fr/~vigneron/RewritingHP/                                      
<Fare> abi: Maude?
<abi> Maude is a reflective rewriting logic language at http://maude.csl.sri.com/
<imarkov> actually im a newcomer in the are, what im interested in is not rewrite logic but the incorporation of destructive assignment in prolog
<imarkov> without disturbing the logical interpretation of the language
03:20pm
<Fare> side effects in prolog? they've been used for a long time
<Fare> without disturbing the logical interpretation of the language?
<Fare> then you're looking either for monads (a la Mercury), or for linear logic
* AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at Fare
<AlonzoTG> FARE MUST DIE!!!!
<Fare> ATG: must I?
<Fare> ATG: why particularly so today?
<AlonzoTG> I just spent $45 on a book that turned out to be a collection of papers.
<Fare> which book?
<abi> which book is probably that?
<Fare> abi: forget which book
<abi> Fare: I forgot which book
<AlonzoTG> Algebraic and logic programming.
<Fare> is it any good?
<AlonzoTG> I was trying to learn the arcane secret of prolog...
<AlonzoTG> Well it says on the cover, but not on the website, that it is a collection of lecture notes. =(((((
<imarkov> i found some sources on linear logic, loli llp etc. i have downloaded the mercury ref manual but i dont like them both
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<AlonzoTG> the last book on prolog I ordered was out of print =((((
<imarkov> whats monad, fare?
<Fare> imarkov: I don't know anything else than linear logic and monads to achieve side-effects in a pure way
<imarkov> theres something called 'Actor Prolog' at www.cplire.ru/Lab144/index.html
<Fare> imarkov: other communicating prologs (cc/prolog, etc) can be reduced to linear logic
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<Fufie> side-effects can be useful though
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<Fufie> it's hard to write evil programs if you can't rely on side-effects :)
<eihrul> stack overflow, memory exhaustion etc
<eihrul> are side effects that can be achieved within the constraints of a purely functional language :)
<eihrul> evil without the evil....
<Fare> Fufie: linear logic can be seen as a logical formalization of side-effects.
* AlonzoTG/#tunes wants B00KS!!!!
<Fare> BOOKS suck, because there's OO in them.
<imarkov> whats cc/prolog, fare
<Fare> some prolog enriched with communication stuff; for better successors, see Oz or Goedel.
03:30pm
<imarkov> i desperately tried for a week to compile goedel on nt/sicstutus3 and i failed
<imarkov> i didnt know goedel is enriched this way, though
<Fare> hum. Well, maybe try Oz (or Erlang?) instead
<Fare> Oz definitely has side-effects (and distributed programming)
<Fare> so has Erlang (but I dunno what's left of logic programming in it)
<imarkov> does oz have oop :)
<smkl> imarkov: yes
<imarkov> really?
<AlonzoTG> Iph B00kz suck How the fuck am I supposed to learn shit that you were born knowing????
<AlonzoTG> if 
<Fare> ATG: by attending courses at Uni, of course! ;->
<Fare> ATG: or by reading papers and proceedings scattered around the internet
<smkl> abi: mozart?
<abi> mozart is probably a concurrent constraint programming language at http://mozart.ps.uni-sb.de/
<Fare> abi: mozart is also an implementation of Oz
<abi> okay, Fare.
<AlonzoTG> No right-thinking university would admitt me.
<AlonzoTG> I wouldn't be able to pass the fucking co-requs to take those courses that I would be interested in.
<AlonzoTG> I coulnd't afford them anyway.
<AlonzoTG> =\
<Fare> ATG: you're an untermench designed to obey the superior spirits who go to university
<Fufie> and a lot of losers go to univ. 
<AlonzoTG> Only 1% of universities are cluefull enough to realize CS != C++/ASM
<Fare> only 1% of students are clueful enough to realize and care that only 1% of universities are clueful.
<Fare> hey, L.Jospin (then minister of education, now prime) wanted to bring 80% of same-aged citizens to university
03:40pm
<AlonzoTG> In the good old days Us were for the 1337
<AlonzoTG> and they treated students like the 1337
<AlonzoTG> =\
<Fufie> umm.. there is a big difference between regular students and students who are discovered early and helped along by professors
<Fare> what about students who are discovered early and not helped along by professors?
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<Fufie> poor professors then
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03:50pm
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<Fare> Tril!
05:50pm
<Tril> hello 
06:00pm
<Tril> bbl
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06:10pm
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<lar1> Hey
<AlonzoTG> 0m
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<lar1> You here tril?
06:20pm
<air> lar1: have u seen bubble stinky boy by joe cartoon?
<air> www.joecartoon.com
06:40pm
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<lar1> Hey ult
<AlonzoTG> om
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07:20pm
<washort> anyone here?
<AlonzoTG> om?
<AlonzoTG> wussup?
07:30pm
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<carlito> abi: seen _ruiner_
<abi> _ruiner_ was last seen on IRC 19 hours, 37 minutes and 45 seconds ago, saying: lar1: u should sleep now [Mon Jan  3 01:18:29 2000]
<carlito> Fare: you have any info on _ruiner_?
<lar1> What info are you looking for?
<carlito> when he's coming back online in the next couple of days
<hcf> carlito: why dont u email him?
<lar1> hcf: :)
<carlito> good idea!
<carlito> just wondering if I could catch him online 
* hcf/#tunes is sick of typing that
* hcf/#tunes is more sick of getting that response
* hcf/#tunes is away: (afk)
09:00pm
<carlito> bye all
-:- SignOff carlito: #TUNES (Leaving)
09:20pm
<air> next time carlito drops by suggest to him that he stay on irc 24/7 and maybe he can catch ruiner
-:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
09:30pm
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[207-172-50-66.s320.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com])
-:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-143.ici.net] has joined #tunes
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp187.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
<lar1> Hey eihrul
<eihrul> lo
<eihrul> meta machine?
<abi> i think meta machine is at http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~tonybeve/mm/The%20Meta%20Machine.htm
<lar1> I don't know, hcf added that, I just reformatted the topic
10:40pm
<eihrul> gah, lisp is the meta machine! :)
<lar1> Heh
<eihrul> abi: seen core
<abi> core was last seen on IRC 6 days, 7 hours, 23 minutes and 30 seconds ago, saying: changes the density of matter [Tue Dec 28 15:23:44 1999]
<Downix> hmm
10:50pm
<Downix> ok, I need to get to bed
11:00pm
-:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (BitchX: born to raise hell)
<lar1> Hmm, good night all
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving)
11:10pm
* eihrul/#tunes coughs.
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0104
IRC log ended Tue Jan  4 00:00:01 2000