IRC log started Sat Mar 4 00:00:00 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0304 -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn54.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-38.vpn.uib.no]) -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (http://www.qzx.com/ :: sleep) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-38.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[16dyn54.delft.casema.net]) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn54.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Read error to smoke[16dyn54.delft.casema.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn54.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp127.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (bot machine) -:- tcn [r@cci-209150250070.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2 cLIeNUX. Can you say that?) -:- tcn [r@cci-209150250070.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2 cLIeNUX. Can you say that?) -:- water [water@207.227.184.167] has joined #tunes hey hey eih * eihrul/#tunes needs to find a good balanced tree algorithm. what for? finding which interval a number belongs to hm do you have taocp? * eihrul/#tunes nods. hm squeak's ui will get a proper make-over soon enough it seems http://www.lucs.lu.se/people/Henrik.Gedenryd/Squeak/type/SPRdesktop.jpg 10:00am * eihrul/#tunes wonders why someone would have OpenGL on the palm. yeah it seems odd would it even run at an acceptable speed? even morphic on my handheld is a bit wierd most likely not the palm doesn't even run at 50mhz iirc it looks close to the regular-ol' morphic gui afaik yeah, but it has a tt-font renderer that does anti-aliasing (as well as the cleartype idea from m$) not as if they invented it cleartype? 10:10am -:- ult [noone@user-38lc67m.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes it anti-aliases on lcd screens using each color unit of the pixel 'sub-pixel rendering' heck i remember when a special graphics card on the apple ii did it to double the horizontal resolution oh, ok sub-pixel rendering definitely isn't new :) 10:20am -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Killed (is (user@host request))) -:- ult [noone@user-38lc67m.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes so what did you get out of the shape stuf, eihrul? -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Read error to ult[user-38lc67m.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) 11:00am rmm haven't gotten to finish reading it yet hm friday i just fell asleep well you at least read the one on oo shaping, right? * eihrul/#tunes nods. what do you think? well, at the very least, it aids in the visualization of programs there's also the idea of a dynamically-determined notion of shape within the framework in question (so you can edit at various "levels") in fact, i was kind of sleeping when you beeped :P btw, this brings to mind my idea that bmo's can be used on clones to make sure that changes go to the prototype rather than the object in question lol closer your client, then ;) s/closer/close/ so, may i take my leave? :) if you must :( just do it consistently i'll be back in a few hours, just catching up on some sleep ok -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) 11:10am -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp127.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes wb re i'm considering calling an irc meeting how so? tunes community relations as well as slate stuff ah, mailing list yes i'm basically tired of the lack of focus which i can't provide myself, especially as i'm not a member 12:30pm rmmm, fare's the leader of the project... what's your point? :) lol so what do you infer here? being a member has nothing to do with providing direction to tunes? (btw i just sent mail about this to tril and beh) large, collaborative projects are doomed to never get off the ground :) lol Fufie has an interesting member's entry so tell me what you think about shaping haven't read enough yet :P i'd suggest collecting opinions about the direction of tunes and search for a common pattern there's not much to the theory it's like asking a blind man's opinion of an elephant when he's only touched the tail! :P does shaping relate to data storage structure? smoke: yeah but consider the interests of the people who volunteer themselves as "members" abi shape shape is at http://linus.socs.uts.edu.au/~shape/shape.html kind of it's a more general idea that FISh man's page? -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us336.javanet.com] has joined #tunes yep hi hcf hi water although fish has a pretty limited take on shaping if you have real shaping, can you implement catamorhism and anamorphism? 12:40pm i haven't thought about that, but i suppose you could hcf: i've mailed beh and tril about meeting to discuss various issues k discussion would help, conclusions more so well conclusions don't matter if the tunes members don't get in on it if i think that `shape' is limited to 2d/3d thinking, should i read the introduction paper? :) smkl: Yes irc meetings have a tendency to not reach conclusions, from my exp what kind of decent discussion apparatuses are there next to wiki and mailinglists? hcf: yeah well what about *my* influence on things? :) smoke: dunno water: u mean like ppl gettin pist and leaving? * eihrul/#tunes ponders if there are any programs for visualizing trees out there. :) 12:50pm eihrul: do a web search on data-structure visualization hm hcf: i doubt i'd piss off tril or beh besides, looking at the entries of tunes members who tend to get pissed off indicates that they don't really want tunes anyway * eihrul/#tunes settles for his whiteboard and a marker... -:- water_ [water@tnt-10-213.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- tcn [r@cci-209150250046.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes 01:00pm -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[207.227.184.167]) -:- water_ is now known as water hi tcn hey well if anyone wants to discuss shape, please do -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Ping timeout for tcn[cci-209150250046.clarityconnect.net]) -:- tcn [r@cci-209150250044.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes 01:10pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207.172.184.153] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2 cLIeNUX. Can you say that?) eihrul: still there/awake? 02:30pm i suppose what are you interested in doing, slate-wise? hm maybe not the right wording, but oh well you mean, what specifically interests me about implementing slate? sure the compiler :) heh is there any new lisp code? not yet any obstacles to that which i could address? 02:40pm well... how the compiler is to remove everything you're adding :) heh like what in particular? omL om? i don't see namespaces being too hard to implement, since you have hash-tables readily available meta-object overhead oh *that* :) and also, hash-tables are still quite expensive and need to be optimized away :) yeah well that's your department (hash-tables) ;) hm bmo's well, you can re-compile methods every time the meta-space changes i suppose * eihrul/#tunes nods. but what is needed is more of a real implementation of Top, of course heh i supose we could live with a bmo which effectively did nothing for now i.e. basically you get totally mutable objects well, that's easiest way to do it for now :) to get anything else, we would need to fully outline what Top would/would not do 02:50pm unfortunately i don't have a complete answer for immutability, iirc yrc yrc? you remember correctly ah well do you have any suggestions yet? as for mutability, no :( hm well maybe rewrite offers some answers ;) as far as i see, having a combination of mutability and immutability and expecting either one to behave appropriate has lots of problems :) well we can restrict the interaction to something useful yet well-bbehaved immutability does provide some interesting ideas, like overloading of identifiers the problem is that for each value in an immutable object's history there is a separate namespace essentially sort of like scheme's environments -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) 03:00pm any ideas at all? * eihrul/#tunes shakes. hm well objects-as-namespaces seem to be an interesting way to go but still it's complicated to deal with in general 03:10pm hm what about that shape in oo idea? where you map the shape concept to our idea of immutability * eihrul/#tunes hmms. could work it's at least a metaphor but with shapes... does it declare nodes or edges to be the shape? :) edges i think hm no its subgraphs so, nodes-ish? basically yes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh3-port13.snet.net] has joined #tunes 03:20pm i don't think that those kinds of immutable objects *care* about other mutables, though the basic core of objects in slate will all be immutable the question is when and where to allow mutability it's already pretty clear how to construct immutable objects, using slate's representation idea, and that even includes assignment the problem is that we can't just have a mutable object throwing away its old values without some checking abi obliq obliq is a lexically-scoped untyped interpreted language that supports distributed object-oriented computation, at http://www.luca.demon.co.uk/Obliq/Obliq.html 03:30pm hmmm, self-balancing trees :) perhaps you can define environments yes but how? that is if a particular property reaches a point in anevironment then the environment put the smack down on some objects as opposed to obfuscationng your code with a billion conditionals not sure i follow (fsck I have to think now that I spake) gimme a minute heh ok 03:40pm -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Read error to eihrul[usr5-ppp127.lvdi.net]: EOF from client) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp127.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes sigh what's bugging you? X11 just crashes s/crashes/crashed and took down all my windows yuck * eihrul/#tunes mumbles something about linux and unix in general and orthogonal persistence. X 3.9 ? nope what version then ? irrelevent it's crashed get over it hm slate shares some features with obliq if you had orthogonal persistence, the orthogonal persistence engine would've crashed and you couldn't get back on irc since you lost your password :) kinda like you partition table getting erased 03:50pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-134-67.s321.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes * eihrul/#tunes hmms. * eihrul/#tunes ponders why he is such a masochist. * AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on eihrul rares: still thinking? 04:20pm -:- smoke is now known as Zermelo -:- Zermelo is now known as zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzorn -:- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzorn is now known as abel okay here goes goose hair: well let's say you have several applications open and they are seriously leaking a signal such as SIGBEHAVE could be used to have them clean out or reconstruct their memory maps the environment instead of keeping up on every app's activity would just watch the resources drain and it could even see if the resources are draining too fast. uh -:- abel is now known as \ what? it beats verifying every incoming request for resources that's quite a sentence wtf does it mean? :) -:- SignOff \: #TUNES (Killed (NickServ (This nick is reserved by another user))) -:- \_ [smoke@16dyn54.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- \_ is now known as XeF4 * rares/#tunes inserts punctuation 04:30pm it still won't make sense -:- XeF4 is now known as Cavey -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) okay here goes goose hair: well let's say you have several applications open and they are seriously leaking. A signal such as SIGBEHAVE could be used to have them clean out or reconstruct their memory maps. The environment instead of keeping up on every app's activity would just watch the resources drain and it could even see if the resources are draining too fast. why else would you modify something? i was thinking more in terms of programming rather than apps i.e. language not os I suppose there's a question of what effects changing an object's structure would have on other objects there definitely IS -:- Cavey is now known as the-real-spectre here you need an intent parser -:- the-real-spectre [smoke@16dyn54.delft.casema.net] has left #tunes [] er a pupose determinator maybe references as higher-order functions purpose even what do you mean? sounds too much like ai yes it does well the reference could be a pointer to a value, or a pointer to the stream of values not the greatest idea, but it workd works eihrul: still here? so you mean to say the reference represents the things that shouldn't change asd you change an object like a stream of values representing a history of values to remain as it was before the change or you rverse this and say a stream of values might represent what you want to happen something like that yes yeah heh you know what sucks (psychologically that is) 04:40pm i was wondering, eihrul, if we could simply have the stream reified in order to provide different ways of accessing it's values * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. although it would make bmo's sensitive to userland objects -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (Ping timeout for rares[wtrb-sh3-port13.snet.net]) otoh those objects might simply be another part of implementation-supported objects -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh1-port85.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (KVirc 1.0.0 Millennium BETA 3) 04:50pm well i will go relax for a bit i'll bbl tonight -:- water [water@tnt-10-213.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] 05:00pm -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh5-port86.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp127.lvdi.net]) -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh5-port86.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp196.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 [larman@1Cust225.tnt20.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-135-82.s590.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh3-port75.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- rares is now known as GeneralPupose -:- GeneralPupose is now known as GeneralPurpose -:- SignOff GeneralPurpose: #TUNES (Read error to GeneralPurpose[wtrb-sh3-port75.snet.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh8-port210.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh8-port210.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] -:- water [water@tnt-10-213.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes * AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on water foo 07:30pm bar 07:40pm quux hey 07:50pm -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp433.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _ruiner_[ppp433.wi.centurytel.net]) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) Hey water! yes? Just saying hi also When you left {} that wasn't because of somthing I said, right? yeah it wasn't because of you Ok, just making sure I wasn't offensice 08:10pm is there anything you want to talk about? Not in perticular k -:- water [water@tnt-10-213.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us237.javanet.com] has joined #tunes 08:20pm -:- Fare [fare@s195.paris-119.cybercable.fr] has joined #Tunes Guten tag, Fare tag? Good day Is that incorrect german? yes: it's not day. guten nacht Picky... :) Fare: it is, somewhere Tunes exists, somewhere. We only have to find it. Yeah... in an infinite universe... well, if it was infinite, we could not determine so sure. WE are finite. though, could one determine that the universe is not finite? as far as we know, there is no knowable limit. Hence, for all that matters, we can consider the universe as infinite in potentiality sure, but that's just guessing :) tomorrow some astronomer could find the edge of the universe That would suck -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp327.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes (actually, I'm lying; entropy theory and quantum physics suggests that there are finitely many configurations) hmmm, neat just passing by Kukag! -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (:Connection reset by pear) 08:40pm That was... abrupt <_ruiner_> hmmmmmm..... <_ruiner_> yes it was _ruiner_! When did you show up? I didn't notice you! <_ruiner_> just a few minutes ago <_ruiner_> I was here before though 08:50pm -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- NetSplit: carter.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [10:15pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [carter.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: carter.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- lar1 [larman@1Cust225.tnt20.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- lilsim [lilsim@lsanca1-ar2-059-034.biz.dsl.gtei.net] has joined #tunes air where u at???? -:- SignOff lilsim: #TUNES (Read error to lilsim[lsanca1-ar2-059-034.biz.dsl.gtei.net]: EOF from client) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0305 IRC log ended Sun Mar 5 00:00:00 2000